Podium Cafe

No excuses

Contador had a 5th place Tour.

Get em next ear.

I'm glad he was here - made it exciting as only he can

What a TT by Evans. A complete rider wins the TdF.

Chapeau.

Solid ride by Voeckler, who shows he can ride a TT when he wants to.

agree on both counts

Congrats to Evans, and to Voeckler too!

congrats tp Cadel

And everyone else that like him..

pablo777 - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

Thanks, Gavia!

I do have tears in my eyes, watching Cadel. What a Champion!

Cadel's tears much easier to take than Andy's.

The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat…

Great Tour.

tears are hard earned by both

+1

First Tour stage win for T-Mart!!

Nice!

Hincapie on another tour winner team

ho-hum.

Support by Marcus Burghardt I thought was real good this year also.

then he goes back home to his ho hum yellow jersey podium girl wife

whistlingmountain - July 23, 2011 reply

Sucks to be him.

but the veins, he has to live with those veins

sucks to be her?

Meh

Rather nice, really.

remnants of the Roubaix crash a few years back

They were there then too

R Mc - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

hot damn

though GH kind of look like that kick sand in face guy from comics

And to think... he's actually heavy in that pic.

shouldn’t be surprised that dude knows all to well that board shorts are for boarders and fat guys. wtg GH!

Clompy - July 25, 2011 reply

another plus

her dad is a chef and she’s apparently a great cook as well

And our very own PdC interviewee Brent Bookwalter!! Chapeau!

Yes beautiful work on Galibier!

CADEL

World Champion, TdF Champion, but will he ever achieve the ultimate?

Eneco Tour Champion

Will lose his form in the 216 Post Tour Crits he's schedule to ride

Congrats to Cadel, you are a great champ!

singhstax - July 23, 2011 reply

Wait...I thought Cali was the 4th GT?

Eneco is HC

don’t you mean Eneco top climber?

Vtt (mtn bike) world champ too

quite a career

U23 World Champ

After seemingly endless heartbreak

the last ears have been good for Cadel.

Good for him.

Rode a beautiful and brilliant race.

think you meant

chin, not ears.

specq - July 23, 2011 reply

Awwwwwwwwww!

Drowning eyes.

He needs that lion to keep it together doesn't he?

Good for him.

+1

awesome sight

Very sweet.

\o/

Triki - July 23, 2011 reply

Well said.

Excellent TT for Cadel, poor one for Andy

If you look at a really good TT for a strong climber, then Samuel Sanchez rode out of his skin. And Cadel would still have won the Tour if Andy Schleck had matched it.

Andy did well. Top 20.

Especially for the type of ride he is. Cadel just crushed it.

Were condition better for the later starters?

It seems that all of the top finishers started late.

I really am doubting that this was a good TT even by Schleck standards.

When Schleck finishes within a minute of Fabian, something happened with the conditions

Sort of my point

I don’t think that was a good TT for A Schleck.

I think the “Top 20” is misleading.

But look at other top 20 gc riders

About 30" off Velits. Beat Coppel. 30" off Danielson.

Not bad.

Good point

Let's not go with "good" or "bad"

How about a “decent” time trial by Andy?

Sure

I guess I was hoping for more from him today.

One thing for sure, Evans rode a GREAT TT.

No matter what Schleck did, Evans was winning this Tour.

Agree. This is A Schlecks level.

No, I think something happened to Fab.

He was unusually slow compared to riders who went near his time as well. In relation to his expected time.

papyrus - July 23, 2011 reply

Fabian riding at predicted Schleck speeds to provide more realistic course feedback*

*kidding

WaterGirl - July 23, 2011 reply

almost fell for it :o

Yeah, the road were wet earlier.

Good point. So AS needs to figure out way to get time in mtns

Cause he lost even if he did as good as Sammy. Well that is his goal now. Look how long it took Cadel …

Cadel said before the start of the Tour that it took Indurain seven tries to win the Tour

and that this was his seventh try so whe was feeling good. Its just not easy to get it right. I do like that the more complete rider took it. Andy is a bit of a one trick pony (really good though that one trick is). He has to stop thinking of the Tour as being a climbers race and concentrate on his other skills.

Either that, or actually race the climbs.

As one said in the earlier topics, he let 3 chances go by without really attacking. It is in my opinion that had he attacked in the Pyrenees and the Alps, he would be wearing the Maillot jaune tomorrow instead of Cadel.

maybe

or perhaps he would have burned himself out in the Pyrenees and gained nada in the Alps.

He is the self proclaimed mountain climber.

He should be able to handle two different days, with a rest in between instead of two back to back days. Might have made the difference in his ITT time.

one trick ponies don't win monuments . . .

Sanchez.

Good overall performance by him.

better than good

well deserved dots

agreed

I was delighted he won; he was the form climber, really.

Maybe the polka dots gave him wings?

Yeah, it was a hot ride ...

… does fever come with the measles?

Cadel was 1:08 faster today compared with Dauphine

Don’t know what to expect from Andy based on that

Wow.

And that after 3 weeks of really hard racing.

Have to admit, I did not think Cadel would have this kind of Tour. Really really happy for him though!

Bravo Cadel!

I think this course was one

Where having riden it before really would have helped. Some technical points, knowing where the speed bumps were, etc. I was thinking Cadel might gain some seconds from that. But he left it all out there.

He gained his schleckonds in piles today.

The course had some water on it last June, not the time to take any risks.

Martin was just a few seconds from his Dauphine time

And there wasn’t that much water

Martin said he was helped a lot by riding it then.

This reminds me a lot of Stephen Roche's win over Delgado in 1987

Evans had to take control of the chase on Thursday, just like Roche on La Plagne in ’87. Then he put in a brilliant final time trial to take the jersey for good. Great Tour. Only behind ’89 and ’87 for me.

Fernando - July 23, 2011 reply

+1 This entire edition of leTour ...

… seemed like a throwback to the 80s. I had a good time following it this year.

Ice <~~~~~~~~throwback to the 60s

Ice Nine - July 23, 2011 reply

Cuddles, you bewdy

Ju Ann - July 23, 2011 reply

Very happy for Cadel!

But very sad for Andy! I’m a little teary for both of them, I think. Two amazingly gutsy riders the last week or so.

this

Two amazingly gutsy riders

Well said.

Hincapie interview.

What did he say, please?

Just very hapy to be on a Tour winning team again.

Thanks!

I'd like to see

Cadel’s teammates congratulating him after the stage…

Is he the all-time winningest domestique?

Question

I missed the first part of the stage, but bite that Cancellara did not have hius usual ride.

Was it conditions?

And how many of the Top 20 started late?

No nice for everybody I think

Hard to understand

Cancellara then.

Did you see him pulling uphill in the Alps?

I saw him pull up the Alps in past Tours

and then winning the final TT.

That’s not convincing to me.

I’m thinking conditions.

He doesn't always win the final ITT.

If he loses it's by a few seconds

He has visibly been on pretty average form throughout the Tour

No surprise that + the last two stages makes for this result . (plus rain)

Apparently he had only 25 mins to warm up due to traffic.

Needs more time than that and wouldn’t have been in a nice tranquil place in his head either. That has to have an impact.

Yeah, this

This has not been the ultimate Cancellara experience we’ve been used to.

There was a bit of rain on the middle part from what I understand.

this

plus mountains yesterday

Road damp in places early

But also Cance just didn’t have it.

Apparently there were a few early riders who arrived late due to traffic

and failed to get in their usual warmup as well. Cancellara and Millar were among those

StickyMU - July 23, 2011 reply

That is what he blamed it on:

bad planning by the Tour organisation to let them stay in hotels on Alpe d’Huez, getting them stuck in a traffic jam down the mountain this morning.

Also bad to sleep at altitude apparenntly

It would be interesting to know if all riders stayed on the Alpe last night.

Alpe d’Huez is a long way from Grenoble on a (one lane -nin each direction) road famous for traffic jams. Bizarre teams didn’t get on the team bus early or something

I know Team Sky's bus went to Grenoble last night

So that the team could get a good spot for the warmup. But since the riders have different start times they have to use cars,

Rained early in the day

Cancellara had to put up with it. later riders did not.

CelticPride - July 23, 2011 reply

well that and he had a cold during the first week

Did Samu get new shorts?!

Swear he seems even more dotty today!

There are those horrible polka dresses again.

Should be banned and removed.

papyrus - July 23, 2011 reply

I volunteer to remove them

and burn them. Later.

luv em!

plus ribbons

I will take it upon myself ...

… to personally remove those dresses off those women. It will be my contribution to aesthetics, world peace, and spreading the love.

Ice

Ice Nine - July 23, 2011 reply

Samu is now all dotty!

This is an improvement on the orange.

papyrus - July 23, 2011 reply

no, not really

(no offense Will)

look how happy mr polka dots looks … nice

He's stoked!

Thank you!

That’s just gorgeous!

pippita - July 23, 2011 reply

Got to be almost better than yellow for the Basques who just love their climbing

Exactly what I was thinking ...

… between 3rd step on the GC podium and the KoM, KoM all the way in Basque country. And it might only be a grudging concession that 1st step on the GC podium is better.

After Cadel, I was cheering for Samu, and then I had to work on the morning he nailed down the KoM.

Great to see a result in the Tour for the Euskies!

indeed

Rolland almost as happy as Cadel.

Isn't he lovely?

Yes.

I’m a fan.

I became a fan this week. :-)

Veloki - July 23, 2011 reply

same here

Me too.

yup...after his post race interview yesterday

Yep, he's going to be expensive in VDS next year!

He’ll rack up a popularity premium

Jens is already trying to talk him down...

I think I adore him :)

I approve completely Albertina!

Hehe :)

Cutie, certo!

You need to pursue this :)

Pursue? What, go to Paris and chase him or something? ;-)

Yes.

Get pics for the rest of us.

It’s your civil duty.

I like that idea

you could take the train over tomorrow morning, right?

If only!

Nothing on earth can compare to the time I had in Paris last year though, anything less would be a disappointment!

that means

you can’t ever go to Paris again?

Tell more about that last trip....

intruiging

CycleGirl and I went to one of the official post Tour parties

and danced until 5am with Fabian, Linus, Andy, Jens….you get the picture ;)

Your account of this was one of the first things I ever read on PdC.

Made quite an impression on me! Sounded like a hella fun night.

It was EPIC!

wow! I see your point

but perhaps a bit of longer term thinking might motivate you to take another trip and seek out the promising youngster?

Well either that or in your dreams...

Tommeke might be jealous!

Tell him you're updating.

For a younger model? He'll be so hurt! Haha

He'll cope :)

Off I go to do some cradlesnatching then.

I’m glad you approve this time. Wonder if he has a chest? ;)

I saw it yesterday. He does :)

We need pics in the hottie thread.

You'll have to share :)

Rolland will be expensive in the VDS game.

BAH!

He is crap in the VDS. Has been for years. Fucker.

Sounds like the voice of experience ...

VDSandbagging

that was my thought

how many years can Rolland have been available on VDS? He’s only 24

About this time every year begins the "he is crap" campaign to sway the VDS Gods to keep prices low...

and confuse the masses…

Be careful. The shit’s gonna start to get deep around here…

He was the next big French rider 3 years ago ...

The Badger said he needed to do something THIS year before the tour. Guess he listened.

Not going close to the chump again

Ingrate.

+1

2009 VDS donut

I gave up on him this year

Danielson too. I think I did them both a favour!

I gave up on Rolland too.

The jinx is real. Except for Voeckler.

I think Voeckler thinks you jinxed him in the Alps

he's actually my best rider

by some distance :-)

Rolland is so chuffed with his white jersey :)

He said

that with Andy gone he had that as a goal. Set it aside for Voeckler for awhile though.

He was a wonderful teammate.

Gesink gone is the real factor

but that’s not Rolland’s problem.

Gesink.

Wft happened?

Crash

Seems a bit fragile. Hopefully it’s a fluke and not something that will dominate his career.

I worry.

Me too. But Cadel proves that you can grow and change

only as far as your body lets you though

yeah

I don’t know that anyone has described Cadel as “fragile”

Mentally he was, and that's what worries me with Gesink.

Quite

Not doubting the crash physically hurt Gesink but he seemed to shut down completely mentally too. Maybe we will hear more later on the extent of the injury but it looked a little worrying.

No doubt there's more to it, and he's only young, but he doesn't seem very resilient.

First bad day after the crash

was also exactly a year after his father died. May have been a factor, though he didn’t mention it.

I think it was his dad's birthday, wasn't it?

He died in the autumn: Gesink had just won Emilia for the second time but pulled out of Lombardia when his dad has his accident.

Poor kid.

Ah right, sorry

Maybe his Mum had something to say to him after his own crash

Mum’s can be a bit anxious like that.

I did. Often.

Thought his 02 giro collapse had messed him up.

Good to be wrong sometimes.

R Mc - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

trying to explain to my roommates why you don't attack on the final day

Wisco12 - July 23, 2011 reply

I feel like I know your roommates.

you'd spill the champagne?

Hark to the wisdom ^

get new roommates

fineco - July 23, 2011 reply

agree - it is fine to attack roommates on the final day.

Mmhmm

Go for it Andy! Not a prayer of it working, but I’d love a little bit of last day frantic racing.

More likely Voeckler taking off I think!

He's only got to put 51" into Frank ..

… ah, well, it’s an alternate universe, but it would be fun.

Yes I wish they would race.

I hate that GC is “over”.

hughw - July 23, 2011 reply

Some people will never understand.

If someone thought they could win

They would be attacking. It’s just has never happened and probably won’t.

even if they had, the sprinter teams wouldn't allow it

yeah, just wouldn't work

dead flat stage

People attack on the Champs all the time don’t they?, try to get away, never works.

It works a few times.

But rarely.

ah? can't think of last time

too lazy to look though ;)

vino, 2003

correct that, 2005

yep

and he was just seconds ahead of the peloton. With no bonifications, I think that’s about the best one could hope for pulling back on the last day.

was it the normal short flat stage?

that’s bloody impressive

standard finishing stage of the tdf. just has been pretty much every year beginning in 1990.

IIRC

it was a pretty late attack that nearly got reeled back in.

McGee took a flyer

Vino followed (I think)

2003 ullrich raced to get intermediate bonus seconds

But that was before the last TT not on the champs.

Hypnotoad - July 23, 2011 reply

final stage

I followed this line to a friend that like tennis:

why do they have to play in white in wimbledon?

I have to explain that to my wife every year

She remains incensed that they do not race.

i'm with her

I had this talk with my Dad earlier.

He’s been asking rather endearing questions for the last three weeks solid…

BAH! ITV4 not showing Samu on the podium. Or Rolland.

They get a whopping great big orange banhammer. Bah.

HOW CAN THEY GIVE THE COMBATIVITY TO ROLLAND AND NOT VOECKLER?!?!?!

Sorry, Roy

they announced it already?

Roy was in almost every break this year.

yeah he was ridiculous, if ever there was a deserving winnar it’s him

+1

and honourable mentions to Delage and Casar.

FDJ rider in the break was one of the few things you could rely on this tour.

yeah very good point

man Casar was even killing it in the TT today

Give it to Roy, I don't see how not to

Agreed.

Voeckler has 10 Yellow Jerseys.

Voeckler's a good choice

I just think Roy was always going out on the attack. Voeckler had a gutty defensive race, but I believe Roy was most combative, imo.

Fully, fully agree.

Roy is the obvious winner of this competition and the jury got it exactly right.

+1

StickyMU - July 23, 2011 reply

Him or Hoogerland

who kept trying to get into breaks even after the crash.

Makes total sense

WTF?

today's should go to Evans, no?

There isn't one for the two CLM stages

Is this the overall?

I suppose Voeckler already had the prize of being in yellow for so may days. I thought the Combativity is normally more of a consolation prize to reward guys that were agressive, but didn’t get much else out of it…

But Rolland got the White Jersey!

Roy or Hoogerland. Roy was in more breaks, Hoogerland went into more pain to get into breaks. Roy is French, so if that is the tie breaker, Roy.

I'm pretty sure Roy won it

Forstoppeise originally typed Rolland, but corrected it to Roy in the next message

Where do they list that on the official site?

Or is that inside scoop on what will be made official tomorrow?

Don't know if or where it is on the site

but Roy said it himself:

Fier et heureux d’obtenir le prix du super combatif du tour 2011. Ce prix me caractérise bien.

Proud and delighted to receive the Super Combativeness Prize of the 2011 Tour. That prize suits me well.

Excellent ...

… outside the big honors, the friskiest rider in the field, not just the friskiest frenchman.

prix du super combatif

is there a better-named prize in all of sports?

Vainquer Paris-Roubaix?

Why not?

Roy has been in 2000 breakaways.

+a suicide attack

Nothing against Roy

He’s been good – but imagine Voeckler on the podium. Voeckler has been the ultimate fighter of this Tour.

But that's not what the combativité is about

Ah, so to give a prize to ...

… Voekler’s escapade, we need a new prize … the prize of super possessiveness, perhaps.

US Figure Skating has a pewter medal for 4th place

Very happy for Cadel!

Not sure how many more chances he’d have and I’m glad he added TdF champion to his palmares.

Cadel used his WC status to help out a lot of charities, and I’m sure he’ll use this title to support a number of good causes.

I wasn't aware of his charitable givings...

He will make a good champion. I wonder if he can come back next year at his age.

Yea, maybe his doctors will write him a clean bill of health so he can compete next year.

I wonder if he can come back next year at his age.

Big ole WTF! to that statement.

I don’t know, I hear guys lose serious speed, especially when they get up into their 40s

;)

Now if this were the NFL I'm sure they would find a "legal" way to prolong his career.

But, when was the last time the TdF had a ...

… winner that was, like, 35???

34, yeah, that’s now happened a couple of times the last 10 years … but 35???

I didn't read the comment as...

I wonder if he can come back (and win) next year at his age.

And are you suggesting he can't win at 35 just because of history?

“Nonsense, you’re only saying that because no one ever has.”

Thank you

for bringing a smile to my face with that quote

If being more serious, I'd suggest ...

… its a case of the Iron Law of Maybe.

It depends on how much beating his body has taken over the years. After all, the last 34 year old winner had previously gone through a serious cancer scare, which metastasized into his brain, and surgery and intensive chemotherapy and radiation therapy. Its possible he was an older 35 than Cadel will be.

But the point I was making was that, assuming untampered physiology and no injuries, sprinters lose their burst of speed younger than power athletes lose their strength. Given Cadel’s style of riding, there’s no reason to automatically assume that 34 is the teetering edge of his career.

Iron Law of Maybe... I must have missed that day in Law class.

But I didn’t miss the day in Statistics where I learned that everything is 50/50, either it will or it won’t happen.

It takes such a good run of luck to have a proper and illness/injury free build-up to the Tour. But with this ride from Cadel, I don’t see any reason he can’t come back and pound his competitors into the ground again. (Assuming Contador gets a year off, because I would also assume AC would avoid doing the hilliest damn Giro in the world as preparation next year.)

Like you say about Cadel’s style of riding, I can see him doing this for several more years.

would be great to see

on-form Contador vs on-form Evans (vs on-form Schleck too)

In fact, he's been a huge donor from well before the WC

I didn't just mean his own financial donations

but donations of jerseys, bikes etc, and using his high profile to promote awareness.

sorry for replying to myself

but also want to credit Sastre who also used the opportunities given by his TdF win to help a number of children’s charities.

I have no doubt that will happen. Evans won a huge prize here in 2007 and it all went to children's charities.

Fine compliment paid during the Bert interview

Cadel’s is a spectacular performance. He did some amazing work in all aspects of the Tour and then against the clock.

I think Bert won Cadel the tour...

when Andy insanely followed Bert on his accelerations last stage. Cadel was thhe smartest rider

Cadel won Cadel the tour

To say anything else diminishes his accomplishment and that of all the competitors.

For sure...

Cadel was the complete rider. But every winner always has a little bit of luck on his side :) But I agree, Cadel won it

Yes

Triki - July 23, 2011 reply

yeah it was kind of interesting

that at beginning of yesterday’s stage, announcers were saying “Contador may have just won Schleck the Tour,” but now it seems that the opposite is true – I think Evans would have won anyways, but Schleck might have been able to do something on the Alpe.

Cadel speaks ok english

Contador?

:-D

oh the irony, france 2 is having Jim O. being interviewed...

Who was Cadel praising right now?

Aldo Sassi

His coach who passed away this year

Oh right

ES just mentioned it right now. Thanks!

that was also very touching

Aldo Sasi

his coach I tink

He promised Sassi before he died to put the yellow jersey on his grave

oh really? that's a really nice gesture.

white

awsome!

+many

Looking forward to see more of him.

what's the stuffed toy?

Yeti?

I think it's a polar bear

endangered species

Yup, Yeti.

The Yeti

is even more endangered than the polar bear.

Koppenberg - July 23, 2011 reply

Hard to say ...

… without a firm count, and they are too good at hiding.

Yay!! Clap clap clap :)

cadel is still holding on that teddy bear

lol! he’s interviewing with the teddy bear

Or the Ydf maillot jaune lion?

Well heck...

he can sleep in that yellow! can’t lose that shirt…but the stuffed toy on the other hand lol

It's impossible to buy one of those lions. A yellow jersey on the other hand at just about any LBS.

not much of a tdf fan if doesn't know the difference

It's a lion, no?

yes

I imagine he’ll keep that one…

Awwwww Well said, Cuddles, your a true champion.

Ju Ann - July 23, 2011 reply

Yes

how did he get the nickname cuddles?

American journalist, I think

Ironic reference to his prickly reputation in 2008.
He’s won some fans since then.

yup, couldn't stand him back then

he was acting up more than the Schlecks and Fabian did combined this year

He was a bit of a flake back then

Nothing flaky about his performance in this tour at all

funny thing is

I remember during the Tour that Sastre won, I found Evans really annoying because after every stage someone would ask why he’d lost time, and he’d say “Well it’s not surprising, since it’s 1 against 3” – the 3 being Sastre and the 2 Schlecks. (Lotto team dinners must have been fun.) Yet he was pretty much alone on every mountain stage this year too. Anyways, glad to see he’s dropped that line.

He may have been alone in the mountain top finishes ...

… but he repeatedly thanked his team for protecting him in the lead up and delivering him where he wanted to be at the foot of the climb.

I don’t think its an act, I think he appreciates it that much more because he rode 5 TdF without that kind of protection.

one difference between now and 2008

Cadel’s team protected him from crashes whereas, in 2008, he crashed at least once to my memory, which may have factored into his ultimate defeat

Cadel's team protected him from crashes?

You can have the best team in the world, sometimes you just crash.

there have been some interestng posts from cadel in his diary

basically saying that you CAN keep yourself in the front without teammates, but it is incredibly stressful, both physically and more importantly mentally.

summarising massively, he seems to say that this tour he could simply park himself on burghardt or hincapie’s arse and know that he would be in the right place – takes the stress right down

But being in front doesn't mean you won't crash

According to Lelange it was #1 priority in first week

Ride really hard to protect leader. Hincapie said something the same. Ochiewicz said the same thing – why they brought the “bulldozers” as he called them. So I think it can’t help always, but certainly can make a difference if Hincapie and Burghardt are putting you in good spots.

Leopards did the same thing, and Fuglsang said that they had not made many friends in the peloton because they pushed other riders away to keep the Schlecks in the front.
This keeping the Schlecks in the front all the time may have been why Fränk didn’t crash this year.

LittleOldLady - July 24, 2011 reply

However, it does protect ...

… you against crashes that happen behind you.

I don’t think Le Comte is saying “his team made him crash proof”, but his team definitely did keep him near the front, out of the wind and out of trouble on several nervy days.

According to an interview on the day, he avoided that bad crash at the head of the peleton on the downhill because he thought the descent was a bit sketchy and he had backed off a couple of bike lengths. But having strong team support makes a difference.

And a day that is less mentally exhausting likely leads to more effective PR theater when the post-race part of the job kicks in, which could be part of his better public image recently.

He said "one big difference"

As if that’s the secret to his succes: a magic shield that kept him from crashing. Evans had a lot of shit luck in the past, and he had no shit luck at all in this one (except for maybe that one mystery-mechanical). Simple.

I think it's huge, and Cadel, having experienced the opposite in the past speaks with some insight.

Not crashing is huge

Pretending that you can somehow keep your team leader 100% safe all the time is bull.

yeah don't get me wrong,

BMC did a great job, no doubt, just seems to me that in ’08 his complaint with his team was mainly about lack of help in mountains, vs Sastre/Schleck/Schleck. Seems like it was pretty much identical this year.

BMC helped him in the mountains.

That’s not saying there was a BMC rider riding hard tempo for him and trying to take the wind in the final HC of a mountaintop finish, but he clearly had much more support much deeper into mountain stages this year than Lotto gave him in 2005 or 2006.

That’s not actually a complaint against the Lotto riders ~ I don’t know that they could have given him support on the other side of the first HC of the day, since as I recall they were more built for speed in a flat finish. But cutting the kilometers that you are riding on your own by half or more has got to be a good thing on a high mountain stage, and it seems clear to me that Cadel appreciates the difference.

I recall one day when the Hincapie interview responded to a question along those lines that Cadel had wanted to be delivered near the head of the race at the foot of one climb when it turned into a narrow road ~ a turn that I remember giving several riders trouble, including Contador ~ and Cadel in his interview thanking his team for putting him at that spot at that corner.

I don’t remember off the top of my head which climb it was, but it was definitely much further into that stage than Lotto would have had riders to bring Cadel to the front that way.

just going with what I saw,

and I didn’t see a single BMC with him on any mountain climb in which any sort of attack had taken place. Like I said above, I’m not saying they weren’t good, and HIncapie’s clearly a great domestique. I just find it funny that the criticisms I heard in 08 were all about lack of help on the serious climbs . . . and in this Tour he had no one with him on the serious climbs.

Seems like BMC played it right, though...

Get Cadel to the bottom of the climb in one piece; he’ll handle the rest on his own.

tgartner - July 24, 2011 reply

Cadel was extremely satisfied by his team's performance.

I don’t think he’s mouthing platitudes.

again, not saying BMC wasn't great

my point is simply that, if the criticism was made by Evans (and it was, many times) that Lotto did nothing to help him in the mountains, then the same criticism could be made of BMC. It’s not surprising, they just don’t have the personnel.

I was agreeing with tgartner.

Don't worry about it

The Lotto is shit, BMC rules-myth has gotten so strong that nothing you say will change anyone’s mind. It’s up there with Cadel the wheelsucker and Andy has never raced a race other than TdF.

Myth?

Doubt there’s an objective way of deciding, Though if your team are beaten by Euskaltel in a TTT, you’re doing something wrong. And Cadel was a part of the *Lotto team, saying that the team sucked doesn’t mean Cadel wasn’t one reason to why it sucked.

The myth

that Lotto did everything wrong, and BMC does everything right. But I’m not going to discuss this here, don’t want to ruin people’s party.

That sounds more like a strawman

You seem to have a narrower definition of help ...

… than Cadel. Just suppose that his definition of help includes the whole of the mountain stage and not just the final climb of the day.

BruceMcF - July 25, 2011 reply

not at all

just read everything I’ve said about BMC being great on the whole. This is the sole point I’m making: it’s ironic that 08 Evans kept criticizing his team because he was alone in the mountains . . . then spent this Tour alone in the mountains.

plinytheelder - July 25, 2011 reply

He was alone throughout the stages, with a couple of notable exceptions.

I think I heard the most telling comment from him today: ‘At BMC they let me be me’. That feels like support to him.

Seahorse - July 25, 2011 reply

as I've said several times,

I also thought BMC was really good. Just pointing out that the very thing Evans criticized Lotto for in ’08 happened again this year. Not a criticism of BMC, though in a different Tour, with the Spanish guys on Saxo fresher, this could be important.

“alone throughout the stages” is wrong however.

plinytheelder - July 25, 2011 reply

Must have been Pra Martino, on the Pinerolo stage

Well the real story is that a journo used it ironically in 2008 because of course he wasn't.

I loved Cadel's expression when the interviewer said how popular Cadel was with the fans. :)

Haha, absolutely

funny thing is

since his World Champs year I think it’s sort of become true

Definitely

Turned around his reputation 180 deg., not only with palmares but in his style of racing.

Very true

I became a fan before that, and I know it’s been said enough times, but that World Championship did give him a lot of belief, and he honoured the jersey quite well, both in the Giro and the Tour last year (and obviously this year). Chapeau to him.

So in 2009

Andy lost 1’45 to Bertie on the final ITT.
Today he lost 1’33 to Bertie.

What an improvement.

that's ignoring

that he only lost 31" to Bert last year.

Which realy just pronounces how he hasn't gotten better for this year.

I think two of the biggest attacks in the Tour probably took it out of him

Rode with tons of panache this year

Yup, the boy was toast after both of the last two stages.

I think Bert's bad TT in 2010 was a fluke.

So Andy’s relatively good TT wasn’t as good as it looks.

This.

I don't think he is going to get much better

Which is good for us, that means more attacks in the mountains in future years if Andy wants to win

Yes that sounds good to me ...

+1

This is the level for A Schleck.

he has his height against him

can’t do much about that

Not just the height. Its all skin and bones.

He has quite a vertical tt position

Which sucks in any kind of cross-wind, cuz the drag coefficient changes dramatically.

Evans, otoh, being low and small on the tt bike, keeps a similar drag profile in front and cross-winds.

R Mc - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

Schleck training-camp

Example, he might have attacked early on the ...

… final day in the Pyrenees. Take the time early, force his rivals to respond. The 1-2 tactical punch riding did not work … its got to be used more strategically.

If he’s marking existing gains in the final day of the Alps rather than attacking for time, he also might be fresher for the ITT.

have to say, i have gotten a bit depressed with the amount of armchair ds-sing that has gone on in pdc over the race

particularly about the pyranees.

strikes me that the most likely reason that andy didnt go on a massive attack there was because he couldnt, not because he chose not to,

i do think we have all been a bit quick to second guess people who do this for a living and have aqn information advantage over us

I find that plausible for Contador ...

… given the time he needed, he would have attacked if he could have. And he’s shown a willingness to have a go even when a cagier rider might not.

With Andy there’s nothing decisive to use to decide between “he couldn’t” and “he could but didn’t”. However, if he was hurting, sending his team up to raise the tempo and try to shake out the support of the other main contenders is hard to fathom.

yeah gotta agree in this case

Where The Fuck else would people go for Armchair DSing?

The difficult part is always when people don’t agree with you. But it happens. Maybe in the future you’ll get to chuckle at what people have said this year but it won’t mean you will be any more right than anyone else is today. If people had to be always right to post at PdC then it would be a lonely place.

My advice is to Pierre Rolland with the punches, who knew!

Damn straight

This is where we come to make fools of ourself. Don’t take that away!

Love this Twitter from Matt Goss:

We may have climbed 5/8th of everest on the road the other day but @CadelOfficial just stuck the aussie flag at the summit!!

Is tomorrow a national holiday?

It's a Sunday anyway...

I thought it was already Sunday in Australia :)

That too :(

Cute. Any tweets from Chiara?

Tho I would imagine she’s pretty busy at the moment…..

I'm just about to do an Australian roundup. If I cried, she's probably in shock.

she did tweet something about all of Cadel'f family and friends

in sky and on earth pushing him along the road today (in a metaphorical sense)

Here.

shopping for a yellow dress

no doubt

Andy Schleck win TdF

next month. the 2010 TdF (he wins it in Switzerland.)

ugh!....seriously....

Really no choice

Conta had a prohibited substance in his body. He has to lose the 2010 Tour.

Indeed, my prediction for the outcome from CAS is stripping the 2010 Tour and time served as the suspension. Keeps all other results.

BTD

I thought post-stage posts were counted as part of the live threads: ie no doping talk.

News to me

But I’ll stop.

I think the "seriously" is referring to talking about it

Leave it for later

exactly....not here....I suggest the CN forum for that....

Thing is

you have to be discussing A. Schleck as an “eternal second,” a new Poulidor. But the fact that he will get the 2010 Tour is relevant to that.

But whatever.

even if you believe that

is it necessary to harsh on everyone’s mellow after this great Tour?

let the past be the past.

Not necessary

Surprised it would harsh people’s mellow.

I’m done.

yes....you are done

Not necessary

You’re harshing my mellow . . .

Harshing mine too

but then again that’s nothing new

This talk ruined the love thread and its ruined this one

*live but actually love works pretty well - that's kind of the point

Typically, I adhere to this suggestion,

But it strikes me as fan omertà.

R Mc - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

Agree

Not trying to silence anyone and not a fan of either Conta or Andy

Am interested in doping discussions, very, but there are an unlimited number of blank fanposts available to have that discussion with other people who are interested at the time. Today, right now is about celebrating the stage, a massive overall win and the tour. Not discussing last year’s tour and its dirty laundry.

Agree with that too.

Yep.

Bah.

2011 aint going to be adjudicated in Switzerland.

Yell4Cadel!!!

And for all the latecomers who were no barracking for Cadel to crack the top five, then to get on the podium, then to win the tour … welcome aboard!

I'm not a late comer but thank you! It's good to be aboard.

I have to admit I didn’t give Cadel much of a chance, but top 5, I was pretty sure he would land in the top 5.

sebastiandeluded - July 23, 2011 reply

Barracking for Cadel to crack the top five ...

… would have been 2005 and 2006.

BruceMcF - July 25, 2011 reply

Evans is riding the Vuelta, isn't he?

am thinking not...

Post-Tour money to be made…I mean “racing”…

Also he is no chance to take the rainbow this year

Will be riding domestique for Australia so doesn’t need to

Evans is riding one of the most well-deserved natural highs, that's what he's riding.

yep.

No.

Difference compared to 2008

Cadel had a doable gap to close. Andy and Carlos both rode normal TTs up to their standards but in 2008 Evans rode sub-par while he rode a superb last TT today.

As he mentioned in his interview...

He was injured and very fatigued in 2008.

He’s had bad luck that way in GTs. (Last year, for instance, sick at the Giro, injured in the Tour.) This year we finally got to see what a fully functional Cadel can do. Hope we’ll get to see it again.

Yes, he has been saying for the last few days that it was very important to conserve energy for the TT

Four would have been worthy winners

Chapeau Cadel, Andy, AC and TV for making this the best TDF I’ve seen.
But Evans was the complete package, taking time on every type of stage and that final TT was brilliant

attackagain! - July 23, 2011 reply

Don't forget Thor

Thor, Cav, Farrar, Hoogerland, Rolland ...

Aggressive fun riding, unfortunate spectacular falls, this tour had it all. Best I’ve ever watched on TV.

And Gilbert!!!!

Really, its the sum of every rider in the race.

Exciting from day 1 to the end.

Samu too

Yes

was just about to add that

I dunno

I think there was one worthy winner – the guy who won.

you have a point there

Agree.

Evans showed everybody he is the only rightful winner by crushing everybody in the race of truth.

So now LT says the dream was to get the brothers on the podium.

Yeah right.

I think it's time to be gracious.

It was the dream

Just the secondary one

sure sure...but not in this order hehe

Nygaard hasn't forgot his PR-days

Oh, come on, what are they supposed to say?

It was a disaster? That’s not what anyone would want their team saying. And of course there’s the fact that their team finished 2nd and 3rd which, truly, is pretty damned good.

They would not admit that they were disappointed.

I'm not sure what you're quoting as I've only seen Nygaard's tweet.

But the individuals will discuss their disappointment. I don’t know why you would think it was so important for that to be the first thing the team talks about.

I agree.

Thanks:)

And, damn, enjoy your celebrating!

I am, but remember, my three favourite domestiques ride for LT. They're all winners in my eyes.

Yup, same here

Three out of four members of Lou’s Pantheon (Cadel has not yet been admitted… I’ll give it consideration)

Should be an easier consideration today!

Oh, I know we have shared fandom!

A very good result for the LT team – good TT by Monfort, as well!

Cadel’s is an inspiring story. I’m glad I got to see some of it.

As a teacher, it's one of those stories you draw on. i'm thrilled for Evans

Monfort rode out of his skin

Andy should be getting him a nice present for saving him second place.

I have no doubt that Andy will show MaxM his appreciation.

He did have a great tour. Excellent domestique work, 14th on today’s TT and 29th on GC. That seems pretty damned decent for a guy working on a team with 2 GC hopefuls.

Who can expect them to talk about what happened?

They fell short, and their expected to talk about it as a disaster? I’m with you on this one, they’re looking at the upside.

As consolation prizes go, it's a pretty damn good one you have to admit.

Nygaard was pretty quick to admit that Cadel was untouchable today too.

true but it's L-B-L and Fabu's spring all over

great result but neither team nor sponsors will truly celebrate it

I dunno

First year of the team. 2 of 3 TdF podiumplaces…. If Contador would have won we would have said it was superb since AC is untouchable anyway. It’s disappointing today but still a great result.

Good point. Compare to, say, Sky's first year...

True but they had a much better foundation than Sky

The sponsor comments after Fabu’s spring, the Andy documentary and Andy’s tears today tell us that they aren’t happy with these results. Top notch results but the team want more, so I do not expect the big party(lack of genuine celebration doesn’t mean they as a team have failed, just that they as born winners have higher ambitions).

+1

Management still learning

they didn’t have Riis to run tactics and they still did just as well. Anderson, Nygaard, Schmidt, and co. will run a fine team for years to come, i think.

Well said...

…in the end, I think it’s very difficult to fault how they played this. Evans kept both of their leaders in check with desperate, very determined rides and took time where he could. They used the abilities of their riders very well.

Not aggressive enough in the Pyrenees

We all noted that at the time. The attack on the Galiibier was a new thing for Andy, but I think we will see more aggressive riding from him from now on. He has found he can do it and will have learned his lesson I think.

Quite possibly.

I’m not sure he had the form in the Pyrenees. I think the aim was to peak for week 3. He did, and rode accordingly then, but I think the lesson here may well be that a slightly different approach is necessary.

maybe now that the 'both on the poduim'

Thing is out of the way we will see frank in a more traditional support role. He could do some damage in a smzyd(sp?) type role.

mr. rogers - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

I really hope this happens.

Andy did so much more work than Frank and I think much of it was to protect Frank or keep him fresh for an attack to come that he was never actually ever able to make. If they could all end up being happy with Frank’s podium (and, I think, two other top 5 finishes) then he could hopefully provide some really excellent work for Andy.

But I think this argument will have to come from team management. I can’t know, of course, but from the way they talk, I don’t think the brothers will ever come to this idea on their own.

I hope this happens ...

… the year after Evans retires. I think it could threaten to be very effective.

Way to protect your man :)

A much as was made of the threat of two GC contenders ...

… there’s also something to be said for being far enough down to have the freedom to go up the road. It was, after all, with two team-mates up the road that Andy did his biggest damage this year.

Of course, that would mean the only jersey Frank could target would be polka dots, so don’t tell the Carrots I said that. Winning the KoM is only going to encourage them to try to do it again.

Kim A has always dictated the tactics on Saxo, not Riis though

Wasn't aware of that, my bad

Look at Leopards tactics this year on the Serre Chevalier stage

and compare to Hautacam stage in 2008.

Yeah, almost identical

how about mentioning the tactics from 2007

ah yes, that year was a flop and that was the year without Riis.

And Riis had complicated tactics long before Kim’s team Fakta was closed down.

wrong

Pretty sure I'm not

Pretty much what has been said for years. In any case time will tell. Riis’s first attempt since the split was less than convincing.

to paraphrase some guy from the pentagon a few years ago

you go to the tour with the riders you got . . .

except . . . that in Riis’s case (and that other guy’s too) he could have chosen to bring other, perhaps more powerful options to battle.

Saxo-Bank failure #1 (and I think this one was decisive, even if Contador was fried from the Giro): not having support riders who could keep Contador “bien place” during the first week.

S-B failure #2: not having support riders who could provide meaningful contributions during the third week.

(Although, truth be told, this problem was widespread . . .)

In other words, you can have great tactical sense and not have the riders to execute the tactics.

There’s ALSO the possibility that DS’s are having to learn how to adapt the tactics of a 3 week GT to the physiological realities of a much less-doped peloton.

LTs tactics have been for their stars to "Go Long"

Fabian didn’t win a monument but he did try twice, from a long way out, without team mates. Andy should have attacked with 100 km to go on Galibier? If those are race tactics then maybe Riis didn’t lose too much. Saxo did win a GT this year and a couple of 1 week stage races and a monument. Riis can stand on that record after having his team snatched away by less than honorable employees.

Actually, FC HAS won PR by attacking LONG

but that was Saxo . . .

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

and . . . "less than honorable"???

Probably true of those employees, BUT when Riis is simultaneously DS-ing an Andy Schleck who he knows is leaving his organization AND negotiating a contract with Contador, that makes the whole question of “honor” something for a LeCarre novel.

Yeah, that's all good about the simultaneous Tour activities but it's deeper than that.

In April Riis asked the Schlecks about the rumours and they lied, Riis believed them until it was very late and there had been some bull shit going on. What kind of loyalty do you think Riis owed the Schlecks. They nearly ruined his team, I don’t know what the Schlecks were really doing but I do know that Riis was trying to save his own ass. I can’t blame him or fault him in those circumstances.

Yes, forgot about those details--which don't exactly endear the Schlecks to me . . .

needless to say...

Also, should have had better support in the mountains

Both Gerdemann and Fuglsang basically sucked. If at least Fuglsang would had decent shape, it would had been tougher for Cadel.

L-Mick - July 23, 2011 reply

If Fuglesang had been able to do in the Pyrenees what he did on the Alpe

maybe the Schlecks might have followed through on their offensive,,? We’ll never know.

What sponsor...

I kid, I kid…

you kid well :D

I'm here all week!

It was a dream

been spoken about many times, sure not the way they thought it would be, but for the love of God, let’s let them take something from the Tour for all of their efforts.

I know I did.

This has been the best Tour I have watched.

too much of a steep technical ascent from 2nd step to top step!

Jonny_Red - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

Amazing ride by Cadel

I was so nervous I gave up commenting in the live thread.

Ha :)

:) National Holidays!

I actually turned off my tv for the last few minutes

I thought of putting my heart rate monitor

just to check how I was doing…on my couch

Aaaahahaha

Finally got around to checking the phone, which was bloody well beeping during the podium ceremony… messages from workmates, and my ex – none of whom are into cycling, LOL

To clarify - messages about Cadel ;-)

That's sweet. They know you are into it.

ZoeRochelle - July 23, 2011 reply

Same phone;'s been going off!

There might be some converts!

We see the Aussie cycling fanbase get up to double figures!

Ha! I like to think I've convinced a few people :)

Perfect for GreenEdge to ride the wave of new fans

Great for cycling

GreenEdge has to love this

too bad they won’t get cadel next year

congrats mate

Nice.

Had to fire up the Versus online video because the TV was showing so many commercials through the podiums.

Bah.

ZoeRochelle - July 23, 2011 reply

I think Versus jumped the shark with today's coverage

It was terrible.

pretty awful yesterday

they can only do good coverage when all the action happens at the end, because aside from the last half hour it’s about half commercials.

The same commercials over and over...

and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

This is the dawning of our brave new world

I love hitting golf balls from a rocky crag into the breaking surf.

Don’t you? IZOD FOR LYFE!

Who watches the commercials?

I do.

I did enjoy the Road I.D. commercials with Bobke.

unfortunate: no Tivo, tend to miss racing if I mute

bruyere - July 23, 2011 reply

The stages I did DVR I never watched commercials.

If only real tv had that ability.

same here

in fact, until I saw DriftNasty’s post, I wasn’t aware those were Izod commercials (I assume from his post that’s what they were) as I generally read during commercials, but I have a feeling that song is permanently engraved into my brain

Yeah they were.

From the content, they were supporting the Indy series, and I guess a flamboyant unltra yuppie lifestyle. Made zero sense to me.

As someone else asked earlier this week:

Why are all those people wearing all those clothes to go surfing? Makes no sense. Also, that song just reminds me of THIS ONE, and I’ve had an earworm full of it for three weeks.

I usually enter the IZOD regatta from the beach.

Doesn’t everyone?

I don't have TiVo, but I do have a netbook on my lap.

I tend to surf during commercial breaks.

my desire to ever hear another Weezer song

was significantly diminished by the number of times I heard that commercial (and I generally like the band).

My dog wakes up when the music for the insurance commercial with the dog running and the cat meowing starts up (he watches, then goes back to sleep).

However, this year’s commercials seemed not as bad as previous years in terms of how much I wanted to throw something at the tv.

bruyere - July 23, 2011 reply

Last year had too much Lance.

This year, almost too much Lance. Thankfully he was in only one of the MichUltra commercial rotations.

well blame their marketing department

if they can’t find more than 6 companies that want to buy add time during 66 hours of race coverage. OTOH it’s free and in HD…nice to look at.

at least the enzyte ads were gone . . .

oh, no kidding

can’t believe I had forgotten those. Nothing this year was nearly as annoying as those were.

versus is NOT free

true enough . . .

It is for me :)

Not only do i feel bad for the Schlecks...

But think of all the grinding sacrifice of Jens Voigt, Stuart O Grady, Monfort…those guys who spilled their blood and guts to set the pace. Feel so bad for Team LT right now

Why feel bad?

They made tactical errors that in the end cost them the victory. The raced the best they could and have two riders on the podium in Paris.

I appreciate your optimism...

But it would have beenso sweet to see those guys sipping the champagne on the way to Paris. They sacrificed so much. But I might be falling for the “cup is half empty” syndrome… They did they best they could

I agree, for sure it would have been sweet.

Getting dropped on a Cat 2 was a big mistake.

They have siped in the past most of them

They may have done well but BMC went above and beyond for Cadel this year. I would say they are actually more deserving of the champagne.

Jens! and Stuey have almost said as much.

Yup, big George even won Cadel a min by preparing him for Contador's attack

I congratulate them on placing 2 riders on the TdF podium.

This is grand story — first year team, brothers, fabulous attacking stage win. Bested only by Evans at the top of his game.

They kept all the riders for the ride into Paris as well.

That is a great feat.

What a ride!

A valiant ride by a valiant man. As a Schleck fan, I tip my hat to Cadel Evans. The guy came out absolutely locked in and never looked back. I can firmly say that as an Andy Schleck fan (assuming that Andy cannot win), there is no other man that I’d rather see win the tour than Cadel. A man of honor, who had to fight for everything he got this tour. Beautiful ride for a man at the end of his career. Congrats Cadel!

As for Andy, he’ll most certainly be back. He’s 26 years old, and as proven by Cadel, you can win the tour in your mid-30’s. Andy will be around for at least another 8 years and will win his fair-share of tours as well. He needs to work on his ITT, and also make sure that he doesn’t get complacent on simple stages (like the ride into Gap), but he is a great rider who will wear the yellow-jersey into Paris on more than one occasion in the future.

and for a change win a stage race or 2

He Did

Andy won a stage, but it was too little too late. If he hadn’t lost that 1:09 at Gap, and if Cadel hadn’t rode the ITT of his life, this would have been much closer.

As I said, hats off to Cadel – he has earned everything that he has gotten, but that’s not to say that Andy didn’t have a great tour.

If he can improve his ITT by 20 seconds, if he doesn’t lose the 1:09 in Gap, and if Cadel doesn’t have the best ITT of his life, Andy is in Yellow right now.

I’m not making excuses, just saying that there was a lot of improbable things happening in this years Tour. Andy is right there, just needs to find that extra “bit” if he wants to win. He still has 8+ years left. He’ll get it eventually.

Win a stage race, not just a stage in a race

I think Andy needs to learn what it takes to win, and that is not the same as wanting to win. Maybe work on limiting his weakness. Maybe ride the TT course before the race. Maybe try these tactics in one of the other races during the year instead of using them all as training rides.

Logy - July 23, 2011 reply

he rode a good race

but i am saying win a Stage Race not a stage of a race. The whole thing…Pais Vasco, something….

Fair Enough

I understand what you’re saying, but I still feel that Andy will win multiple TDF’s. He is a good rider, a great climber, and he’s incredibly young. He will get his own one day, it’s just a matter of time. He’s mentally tough and will come back ready to compete with Alberto and Cadel next year.

But this is irrelevant. We know Andy’s a great rider who will win a tour once day, but today is CADEL’s day. He earned it – every ounce of it, and he should be applauded for it. Congrats Cadel.

Andy will not win a Tour

before he wins another stage race.

ENECO TOUR

Beeotches!

The only irony in what you said...

is that even with the Gap “gap”, he still would have lost. I think what Andy needs most is better stategic thinking: He lost the Chess game within the Cycling race. His decision to match Contador’s accelerations in the last stage proved fatal.

But chapeaus to Cadel. A worthy champion.

No, we must not underestimate the psychological part

after all, Andy slowed down when he was beaten, had he had a bigger gap, he would have persisted longer

I believe Andy will win the Tour when I see it.

I'm not entirely convinced.

Though the stage to Galibier has made me admire him rather more than I did. I thought that was very brave & just great.

I know he will

Which is why I have no problem being happy for Cadel today. Andy will have his day. This was Cadel (last-ish) big chance.

+1

+2

and me

+2

+3

y'all suck at math

+- 14 ?

There should be more multivariable calculus

I was told there would be no

ah, forget it

that is such a derivative comment

~~splitter~~ ! divider!

So 20th Century

Today we want Bayesian Model Monte Carlo Simulations….

random comment

:)

I have forgot everything I knew about them

and it wasn’t much to begin with

Let me throw this out here:

Planes of convergence of the random number generator.

Just something to for a while. Or a year.

You are not using a good twister implementation

Or one of the modular expanders. If you need crypographically secure zero-knowledge proof usable RNG my rates are reasonable …

Cheap is good

but I wonder if the old phonebook+dart RNG is fast enough these days.

I still have a copy of "1 Million Random digits"

around somewhere.

(…to ponder for…)

Uhuh

Got to appreciate cadel getting over the bump, he won it today with an exclamation point.

I think a bit too much is being made of Cadel being "near the end" of his career.

When someone is having their best year ever, you can’t safely assume they will immediately begin to decline. It’s possible, but we have seen plenty of riders taper off very gradually, or even improve, in their late 30s.

In Cadel’s case, a lot of things did not go his way until this year. Also, I think he has improved so greatly on the mental/emotional side of things, and his team situation is so much better now, that he could have a number of really fine years still ahead.

eg: Horner.

hmmmmmm

39 yr old rider massively improves on a bruyneel team

Who knew what his potential really was?

I hated him when he came back to the US because he made it look too easy. And still Lance/Bruyneel didn’t want him on their team.

and suddenly quits talking smack about the USPS "blue-train"

yep . . .

Oh, come on

Do you know anything about Horner’s career?

He was very talented, but kind of an underachiever until about four or five years ago. Signed with a Euro team at a young age, didn’t like living in France, came back to the U.S. and was very successful on the domestic circuit but wasn’t training (or keeping his weight down) enough to be elite in Europe, until about four or five years ago.

As flying dog says below, Horner was kind of “slumming it” when he was racking up wins in domestic stage races because he always had the talent to do as well as he’s done in Europe the past few years.

MJB - July 23, 2011 reply

Do you know nothing about Bruyneel/Lance's career?

I know quite a bit about Horner's career.

In fact I like the rider a lot.

Still, there’s much cause for suspicion.

R Mc - July 24, 2011 reply

Then you know Horner weighs about 30 lbs. less now

… than he did when he was riding on the U.S. circuit several years ago.

And he has no results (before or after joining RS) that are suspiciously “extraterrestrial” (to borrow Simoni’s description of Ivan Basso). In spite of his bravado about climbing as well as everyone other than Contador, he hasn’t done that. His best result is winning the Tour of California this year against an off-form Leipheimer with Andy Schleck just using ToC as a training ride. He finished 10th in last year’s TdF because of several minutes he gained in a breakaway, not because he was outclimbing Contador and the Schlecks.

I agree that no one is completely above suspicion, but calling out Horner just based on results is kind of like accusing a major league baseball player after he hits 30 home runs in one season.

+10

Hard to imagine that he finally gets everything going his way and then just walks away from it all….

Sure, the cycling gods may not smile on him as favourably next year, but he has to know that he has as good a chance of a win (or podium) next year as he did going into this year’s race.

Needs to know, like all champions when to quit.

Do you quit while you are on top, or wait until you are too old and in the way? They all want go out a winner but …

If he wants to ride as 1 next year ...

… or wants to try the Giro/Vuelta double … why would BMC say no? He’s not a sprinter, and he’s never been one to snap out four quick bursts of acceleration in a row in a steep mountain stage. If he avoids further injury, no reason why he couldn’t ride at this level for another year or two at least.

That is … not to delved into the ahem other topic … if he has avoided those particular practices that cause premature aging of the cardiovascular system in particular.

I want to see Evans really go hard at Ardennes week next year

Hat off to Tommy D.!

Yup, good result in his first Tour.

top American finisher and on top team, pretty cool

Plus 200 points for me in the Ed's League. Chapeau, Tommy!

ha!

He riding the Vuelta?

hope so

Colorado no doubt.

one of my favorite memories from last year

Nice

there was also the time fignon totally broke down while thanking France 2 for being so gracious with him.

yes

I’ve watched a lot of the France 2 coverage this year & have really missed Fignon.

worth a look see at todays village depart show

when they put the video up on the france tv site

Really nice Fignon tribute piece, lasted a good ten minutes, with loads of clips of his tour and giro wins. (Also did a J Longo piece about ten minutes before the Fignon bit)

+1

me too, even though I often had no clue what they were talking about, but the texts helped alot

wow

I hadn’t seen that. Thanks for putting that up.

What will happen in Australia when Cadel returns?

Here in America, when an American wins a major sporting even, there are so many commerical opportunities, you can do advertising on TV, etc. You do the talk show circuit, Leno, Letterman, Oprah, etc. You can have you own clothing line etc. So much to be made….

Will Cadel’s elevated profile enable him to make anything with it given that he is from Australia? Maybe some Aussies can cue me in…

Doubtful, although a ticker tape parade in Melbourne could well be a possibility.

Commercial stuff is not really Cadel’s thing, but I can see him using his profile for causes like Tibet and Aboriginal education and health initiatives, which are dear to his heart.

Also for the Amy Gillet Foundation

Cadel is into promoting cycling for everybody – he will try to use his profile to make cycling more accessible. I cannot believe he would want to do any of that lecture circuit stuff, but the team will want him to do a certain amount of talk show – principally in the US.

Well I'm hittin' the sack

Need to try for some decent sleep, ‘cause I won’t be getting too much after the ride in to Paris (with work later that morning). Damned inconvenient timezone… think my boss’d mind if I was still drunk when I roll in to work on Monday?

Good night! Sleep well..

I was under the impression

That all Aussies went to work drunk as a matter of course.

No, go to work sober

But then there is lunch :-)

If s/he has a problem

Then get Chiara to give him a piece of her mind

Is she taken? Chiara definitely ROCKS.

Lol!

Comment of the day.

My turn around on Cadel

came partly from his Giro grinta and his WC emotions, but also from Chiara. She’s wonderful and you really see the human side of racing in her tweets.

Just thrilled for Cadel.

Happy he won and happy that he won by riding smartly and showing great strength when it counted.

The Schlecks tweet:

andy_schleck Andy Schleck
I am proud of my of my team and my fans thanks for all the support and even more proud to stand with my solemate@schleckfrank on the poddium
50 minutes ago

andy_schleck Andy Schleck
Congarts to Cadel to you deserve that! Happy for you and your team BMC!its been a great battle looking forward to next year all ready!!!
47 minutes ago

schleckfrank fränk schleck
Congrats to Cadel Evans.the best Won.@andy_schleck and me are proud to be on the podium.thx to @leopardtrek
46 minutes ago

Very gracious

StickyMU - July 23, 2011 reply

Nice

I'm on cloud nine over this ride of Cadel's

I was so nervous, almost couldn’t watch.

agreed

Good stuff. Great ride.

mr. rogers - July 23, 2011 via mobile reply

How about the American teams this year?

HTC-Highroad – 5 stage wins (could be 1 more)
Garmin-Cervelo – 4 stage wins (could be 1 more)
BMC – 1 stage win

HTC-Highroad – Potential Green Jersey
Garmin-Cervelo – Wore Yellow for a week and win team classification
BMC – Wins the whole Tour

Who would have thunk Team Radioshack would be the one going home with nothing? Although they did have some awful luck.

totheights - July 23, 2011 reply

Radioshack's Tour doesn't surprise me

Perhaps one of them would’ve challenged Cunego for 7th

Horrible luck.

They’d surely have had at least one, probably two, maybe even more, top tens if not for all the crashes.

But it does seem like there might be some validity to the notion that when you have too many “protected” riders, there aren’t enough domestiques to protect them all.

+1

Max two and even that can sometimes be a problem.

Good point

Brakovic, Lepiheimer, Kloden, Horner, heck even Zubeldia isn’t your typical domestique.

Great riders, in their own right, but the domestiques can be just as important.

totheights - July 24, 2011 reply

I rather like Hincapie's tweet

‘Yes yes yes !!!!!!!’

How good was Cadel's ride?

Contador finished 3rd in the TT. Cadel beat him by more than 57 seconds.

savory - July 23, 2011 reply

Oh dear

AP:

Evans will have won the Tour without having won a stage.

Idiots.

Three weeks

is a very long time.

And yet it feels like it was yesterday I was watching the team presentation

in Italy ....

Actually, yes

But let us don’t remember that waste of time.

anti-alpinist

They didn't bribe me with a ski vacation

wait until Jens can’t find Serre Chevalier

How cold I not find

Grand Serre Ché – the second largest ski area in the world?

After all he extensive ski area and the excellent weather record of Serre Chevalier offers an excellent holiday for all types of skier and boarder. It has a fantastic snow record, combined with more than 300 days of sunshine every year.

at Lautaret .... keep going straight ..... :)

Are you sure?

I think perhaps the easiest is to take the Ski bus: every 20 minutes from Briancon [Serre Che 1200] via villages to Le Monetier-les-Bains [Serre Che 1500]

oh, sorry, I thought you were booked at the Desgranges chalet on Galibier

I'm unclear on the details

What does “all expenses paid” mean?

someone should tweet the idiots a link to cqranking.com...

…I mean for the love of fucking God.

Just like AC last year.

I have to admit

I laughed out loud when I read that.

And what did they replace it with it?

Evans won only one stage in this Tour

Ell. Oh. Ell. This is freaking hilarious. “Only one stage”. Where does AP get their cycling writers from anyway?

wow that's awful

Yeah, everyone knows that Michael Cavendish should have won.

He wins lots of stages, right?

how the bloody hell did that happen?

Headlines are written by different folks than articles...

…and sometimes they’re fucking careless.

Ed K - July 24, 2011 reply

my worst nightmare has come true

i hoped i’d never have to see the day evans won the tour. still there’s always a positive test to hope for – his blood’s thicker than treacle and probably full of bovine RBCs.

PrinceBuster - July 23, 2011 reply

Couldn't have said it better

My worst nightmare is much worse than the results of entertainment.

You need a harder life.

Given what happened in Norway

That was in particularly poor taste

I'd like to offer my hardiest congratulations to Cadel Evans for making this troll, PrinceBuster endure his worst nightmares.

Sometimes victory can take on an extra special significance in an almost subliminal way. :p

Brilliantly done.

Congrats Cadel

Not my favourite rider in the world, but good riding from him this Tour. Deserved win.

This is 100% how I feel

At the start of the TT, I wasn’t exactly rooting for him. When he crossed the line and I saw his face in the interviews and podium, I knew the ‘right’ man had one this year.

Won! (even)

me too.

deserving winnaar

AS does not deserve to win

Not a complete rider. I have a lot more respect for both Conta and Cadel.

Conta basically rode a solo race in the Alps, no team to help him. Whereas Andy knew he always had 2 strong teammates to pull him in front, there’s no way he attacks on Gaibier without that. But Conta did on Huez, he made the race. Frank wheelsucked the entire tour, and the brothers played it safe in the Pyrenees. Not impressive.

Cadel was the leader the entire race. I rate his efforts the last 2 days as high as AS, esp since he’s not a climber.

This is key

Cadel was the leader the entire race

Every time the race needed someone to step up and take control, when others faltered, Evans stepped in. He raced as though it was already his race. Sure he took on more workload than others, but he seemed to do it in a calculated and determined manner – like he usually rides – and he stamped himself on the race.

He may only spend one day in yellow this year, but he has been the defacto leader of the race since the first week.

good poiny

he rode like the virtusl yrlloe jersey the whole time -sensible and impressive as thor was never going to control the race and tommy v was in full bore defence mode the whole time.

this itt was enormously impressive, but for me the cadel’s ride of the tour was the 10km grind up the galibier with every head of state sitting in his wheel tracks doing sod all (because, in all probability, they couldnt). His sheer determination there was just awesome. there was a moment when i thought he would ride any back on his own.

He may only spend one day in yellow this year, but he has been the defacto leader of the race since the first week.

How much of that is simply because he had a TT up his sleeve? He didn’t attack the field once once. Nothing wrong with that, he didn’t need to, but lets not pretend he was some all conquering machine laying waste to his opponents everywhere he went.

I love Cadel, I’m ecstatic he’s won and he is a worthy champion, but I find the hating on Schleck, with for my money the boldest and ballsiest stage win of the race, quite sad. The guy took 2 and half minutes on everybody who mattered in the mountains, rode a top 20 TT and gets slated as a failure. It would have been a much duller race if he hadn’t even tried on stage 18.

kcbottom9th - July 23, 2011 reply

plus loads

we have been way too negative about the man and owe him an apologyh on behalf of ddifp everywhere

I am sure that a LOT of it had to do with his confidence in his TT

Still doesn’t take anything away from the manner with which he rode the race.

FWIW I think that AS’s ride was almost matched by CE on that day. I would love to see side by side comparisons of power output. It was essentially turned into a two up pursuit, separated by minutes and over an awesome terrain.

Sure AS was balsy to go off like that, though it was clearly planned and he did have two team mates set up for it. But almost equally balsy was CE essentially saying Fuck It, if no one else is going to work I sure as hell am not going to just sit here and watch the race ride away from me.

get over it.

Cadel attacked early this year, stage 1 and 4 winning stage 4.
The idea that we are “hating on Schleck” is way out of whack with what’s been said by the group as a whole. .

yeah I totally agree,

why are people saying this crap about A. Schleck? he gave us an amazing throwback to the great ballsy attacks

Problem with Andy Schleck:

He’s afraid of his bike at speed and on descents.

He lost nearly 30 seconds on the descent today: instead of committing to a tuck and railing it, he was in and out, up and down on his bike, knees-tucked against the top-tube in the universal signal of “I’m scared of speed-wobbles.”

(Having been a card-carrying member of the scared of my bike on descents club, I can spot these behaviors pretty well).

Responding down-thread: the Schlecks, both of ‘em, lack the forward-hip-rotation it takes to get a good time trial position, mostly because they are like rigid as boards. Cunego’s the same way on the time-trial bike.

That’s doubly bad on a tt-bike cuz it robs a rider of power and control: power cuz the glutes aren’t firing as much and control because that lack of forward rotation doesn’t weight the front wheel.

Well said.

We have no idea whether Andy is afraid of his bike at speed. All we know is that:

a) he whines
b) he is a crappy descender
c) he is a decent (but well below his competitors) time trialer

lieutenantmudd - July 24, 2011 reply

+1 on comment that even in this TT, Andy lost a lot of time on the 2 relatively simple descents. He needs to improve this to be a GT winner ….. or a hilly monument winner. (Pogio)

His lines were terrible a couple of times and he never committed. A huge weakness unfortunately.

He had a great Tour, and maybe a bright side is that his weaknesses are apparent so he can work to improve them.

Happy for Cadel, well deserved win

Sad for Bros Schleck though. Given their body types, it’s hard to imagine either of them, especially Andy, ever becoming a strong enough TTer to wear yellow in Paris. Fact.

duckcalldan - July 23, 2011 reply

Andy is easily the stronger TT'er

And you know who have won Grand Tours – Ivan Basso and Carlos Sastre. Neither of them can TT worth a shit. So in theory he would only have to be as good as them. Yeah, be as good as them in the TT and also be perfect in every other aspect of the race, but it can be done. They’re not nearly as hopeless as, say, Joaquim Rodriguez in the TT.

Just seen two tweets from David Millar that made me cry

One:

In team car being driven to hotel. Chatting to VdV & spot cyclist on autoroute ahead, dressed in full Europcar kit. Looks oddly familiar.

Two:

Chat stops, tell car to slow. As we pass have time to look into eyes of a tired and broken Voeckler. Tragic doesn’t come close to describe.

I respect your reaction po8crg but....

I really don’t mean to be a jerk but isn’t this pretty hyperbolic? I love Millar’s tweets and I appreciated TommyV’s fight this year. But the dude’s finishing 4th which he never in a million years would have expected. He had the run of a lifetime in yellow. I understand that, as a competitor, he’ll have tried really hard to podium today and is probably very disappointed.

But “broken” and “tragic” seems a bit much.

Ecstatic is more like it.

TV wildly exceeded expectations and is a national hero for years to come. Left it all out on the road, he has no regrets at all.

He was already a national hero

This Tour made him something even more…whatever that might be, though, I’m not sure.

It was the humanity of one person seeing another at a bad moment

Also, I cry easily.

Sure, when Voeckler looks back on his career, this Tour will be either the high point, (unless he goes on to be a top contender for the next five years – and then it will be the moment he realised he could) but just at this moment, he is in pain. And why not?

I don’t feel the need to find perspective on this yet. If he’s still like that in a week or two, then yes, that would be an overreaction, but he’s laid everything out on the road, ridden in yellow like a hero, cracked on the Alpe and come back to ride the time trial of his life. But it still wasn’t enough to get a podium place. If that doesn’t hurt, then there’s something wrong with him.

He knows he’s a better cyclist than he thought he was at the beginning of the Tour. But he also knows that he’s not as good as he dreamed he was at the finish on the Galibier.

I'm very happy you posted those tweets.

KG wasn’t there and wtf. It’s Millar who may be overly dramatic at times but he is very observant. I would have had no idea ever that Voeckler was out riding his bike back to the hotel alone, in his own world of disappointment and pain. People embrace Cavendish’s rants as real and raw as it gets, this cuts to the heart, Cav and his orations are not real, Voeckler’s moment riding home is real, It helps define the Tour and what it means to wear the yellow jersey.

As I said, I really do enjoy Millar's tweets. He's so articulate.

I just had a strong reaction to the language he used. I think using “tragic” the day after an actual tragedy in Norway pushed some buttons for me. But I know we use that word in sporting events so I guess maybe I could have looked past it.

I’m not quite sure what your point about Cav’s rants was. His expressions are as real as anything else. Millar was telling a story and I objected to his language. But, yes, I do also understand that he was responding in a human way to what he saw in TV.

My point about Cavendish is that he's trolling for a reaction and I think a lot of it is phony.

Millar opened a window on Voeckler, some may have imagined he was devastated but Millar let us know. this is very real and not with an insensitive remark but one that described the moment in his eyes.
What happened in Norway is a tragedy, but so are some of Shakespeare’s plays. That in Millar’s world, at that moment he was witnessing a tragedy there can be no doubt. Maybe there aren’t enough words in the English language as there is a wide range of situations that can be accurately described as tragedies..

except that I don't know that Voeckler actually WAS devastated.

I know that Millar presumes that he was.

Perception is everyth.... no wait.

But what Millar says is the stuff that makes legends. We don’t actually know if Voeckler ever got off his bike, he could still be riding. FMK could write a book about the riders who went insane after losing the Yellow Jersey, I’m sure of it. :-)

Just watched TiVo on the VS replay

He seemed VERY happy and content.

I think Millar is chock full of shit.

In many other aspects of life and cycling as well...

But damnit,

He can sure chuck a bike over a fence.

He should have a bike chucking match with Alberto.

They way he Sumo slammed his bike this year was impressive.

Well

Bert does ride for Riis… the TT Bike Chuck Daddy.

The student is now the Master?

I was not aware of Riis and his bike killing ways. Off for a search I go.

Let me help you out

TT Bike Chuck Daddy – I like that…

muk - July 24, 2011 reply

Yes!

Frustration and its finest.

DriftNasty - July 24, 2011 reply

+1

I cry easily, too, and love that you admit it.

My reaction was to Millar’s choice of language, not to TV’s plight. However, I take your point that TV probably doesn’t look at this year’s Tour in perspective yet, nor should I expect him to.

Who did more work?

Evans on his 10km chase up the Galibier, or Andy on his breakaway?

There are figures available for this stuff right? My guess is Evans worked just as hard since he had no help at all, plus he cannot accelerate so its a harder workload.

Actually, probably no figures for comparison:

Evans riding with SRM (good luck getting those files tho); Andy Schleck NOT riding with SRM this tour.

Difference between Andy and Conta

Andy: “I have no regrets, mission accomplished. Podium finish is fantastic”
Conta: “Only winning matters. If you don’t win you’re last”

One is a true champion who never quit even when he knew there was no hope.

I don't know

Saying and doing are different things. I admit that Andy has been too defensive, but I think it’s more to do with his “protecting” Frank in the top GC positions. But then Andy had that insane breakaway, and how he chased down Contador. I think he would do much, much better in a team without Frank, or one where Frank was riding like a true super-domestique.

That sounds more like one of those goofy pep talks

that are cooked together by someone who has dabbled to much with sports pop-psychology

I think there's a bit of truth

e..g I can’t imagine Andy would try and attack the TT like Conta did if he was ~4min back with no hope. Andy is a thinker, he’s not an instinctive fighter. He’s not the type to say fuck it, I’m gonna race for my honor, results be damned.

I am not a big fan on the meme that being gracious after a race is a sign of significant weakness

+1

Listen to the nyvelocity podcast from yesterday. There is the absurd situation where they (Friebe, Tan & Moore) criticize Evans for his lack of straightforward anti-doping statements in the post-stage pressconference while at the same time saying this Tour wasn’t that great because there weren’t the big personalities like in the Armstrong years. WTF?

Is there some sportwriter’s mental block that you aren’t a true champion unless you are pompous and exuberant in victory?

Jens - July 24, 2011 reply

I'm still trying to get past the fact that some people criticise Evans because his victory salutes aren't

sufficiently ostentatious – also a WTF for me.

+1

Such bullshit.
If you have the ability to think about what you’ve done, properly assess your strengths and weaknesses and then conclude that you gave it all you had but still missed; you’re not a winner.
If you’re not a complete asshole off the bike; you’re not a winner.
If you shake you’re opponents hand rather than bash his brains in with a wheel; you’re not a winner.

People go a long way to rationalize shit behaviour.

I find the armchair psychoanalysis a bit puzzling

Quotes are for the media. Other than that, I don’t see any reason to judge Andy Schleck one way or another. Just because you have a different personality shouldn’t mean people keep comparing you to an archetype.

Hasan Paliwala - July 24, 2011 reply

well said

Absolutely!

Ed K - July 24, 2011 reply

i think it's not the graciousness,

contador was also gracious towards cadel. It’s the “mission accomplished” bs. Although that’s probably just finding something to say to the media.

yeehoo - July 24, 2011 reply

Yay Cadel!! Yay Tony!!!

Phil H. - July 23, 2011 reply

I guess Andy is the new Cadel

Third straight runner-up. I’m sure standing with your brother on the final podium will be unforgettable in its own right, but to come this close and not seal the deal has got to be agonizing.

I admit it – I snarked when I saw Cadel’s race program this year. Almost nothing, with the focus of winning the Tour? Right, I said. Fifth place, maybe, I said. But then he looked dynamite in Tirreno-Adriatico. Dynamite in Romandie. Awfully good in the Dauphine. And here I am applauding in stunned silence. Cadel Evans has won the Tour de France. I’m still processing that. I think his program and route to victory will be studied by other teams and riders, because he and his team did pretty much everything right. Cadel wasn’t the strongest rider – that was Andy, or perhaps Sammy Sanchez. But without a doubt, Cadel was the smartest rider.

I’ve never been a big fan – but I am happy for him.

I bet if we got to look at average power

We would see that Cadel was the strongest of the contenders – not in watts/kg but absolute.
As far as just flat out throwing watts out there, I would guess Mr. Danny Pate takes the prize.

kiwi_dude - July 23, 2011 reply

I've just been re-watching Stage 19

I think Contador played king maker. He attacked from super far with no real hope of putting in that kind of time. Andy follows for his second super long effort in two days.
Now maybe in the bad ‘ol days you can do those kind of efforts over and over again. But today, tactics dictates you let Contador go, ride with Evans then drop him in a place that will get you that extra minute you need.
While I loved the old style racing – I mean really loved it. This is what happens when you ’go long’ 2 days in a row. You have a meh TT.

kiwi_dude - July 23, 2011 reply

This

and Cadel was had impeccable form this year. He knew exactly what he had to do and what he could do. He seemed to measure his efforts much better than FrAndy.

+1 He's eight years wiser than Andy, that's for sure.

+1

What really sticks out is Evans’s ability to measure himself and ride his own race – no-one else seemed so composed this year

yarb - July 24, 2011 reply

Contador was riding for himself

He was hoping to blow the stage apart when he attacked. It didn’t work out that way.

And, is there any way of measuring whether Andy or Evans used up more of their reserves on stage 19 (or 18 for that matter)? I wouldn’t automatically assume that going with Contador’s attack (in which Contador did at least two-thirds of the work) burned up more energy than having to change bikes and then chase back all day from a few minutes behind.

In stage 18, certainly, Evans was doing all of the chasing on the front with no help from teammates, or allies, or would-be contenders. On that day, he and AS might as well have been the only riders on the road.

You'd have to be able to look at power files

and calculate “matches burned” and Training Stress Scores

And then there’s the matter of motivation . . .

R Mc - July 24, 2011 reply

Right. But don't hold your breath...

… waiting for the teams to share that power-meter data with us.

I wonder how much data they actually have? If I were a DS, I’d be collecting as much data as I could, not only power meters, but before and after tests on the riders… I’d want to know how much each stage takes out of each rider, how quickly they recover, how well different recovery techniques work…

Agree that in retrospect, going with Contador might not have been the best thing for A. Schleck. But let’s not forget that Evans tried to go too! This was the famous “wheel problem.” If not for that he’d have been up with Contador and Schleck, or in no man’s land with Voeckler.

but . . . in the bad old days . . . no one tried . . .

except Sella . . .

R Mc - July 24, 2011 reply

*-was-

Win the Worlds

Win the Tour de France.

Man, I would retire.

And get seriously fat.

kiwi_dude - July 23, 2011 reply

hehe

haha!

comment of day hands down ;)

mini-rant coming...

Yes, I’m sure this is obvious to most but I have to get it out of my system. I’ve seen comments in various places (not necessarily here, or maybe there have been and I missed them) about “the Tour de France should never be decided with the time trial, that’s not right” (presumably by A. Schleck rather than Evans fans). Never mind the idea that maybe ideally the race should be won by the most complete rider, but if someone has an issue with the TdF coming down to one stage (whether it be a TT or a tough mountain stage or whatever) then IMO they need to realize it isn’t just that one stage, it’s everything that came before that caused the race to be decided by that one stage.
There are similar complaints when international hockey games are decided in a shootout (rather than in endless sudden death overtime as in the NHL playoffs), or say when the Women’s World Cup is decided with penalty kicks, ie. “it’s not fair that it comes down to such a finish”. Well, I say, if you (or your favourite rider, or your team) had managed to play better/ride differently before that one point, it wouldn’t have come down to just one stage/shootout/penalty kicks, so don’t just complain afterwards about it and instead realize you needed to do more beforehand! /rant over

guidemd - July 24, 2011 reply

Your point is lost when you bring up shootouts in hockey and soccer. Time trialing involves a bike-racing skill, and its place in a grand tour is useful in moderation. Shootouts do not involve “real” hockey or soccer skill, and are much more crapshoots than one individual stage on top of a grand tour are… what was this doing in this post anyhow?

cajuncook - July 24, 2011 reply

Sort of miss the point

The thing is it’s not fair to complain about the TT deciding when the losing side in fact did have a chance to do enough to win before it came to that last TT/shootout. In the case of Andy he knew the TT was there on stage 20 and he had 5 or 6 mountainstages to “decide the game” before it. The fact that he didn’t is where he lost the TdF, not in the way he TTed.

And the shootouts may have a crapshoot element to them but in modern day international soccer at least they are used as a factor or a “skill” by some teams, almost to the extent that the defend/TT to victory is used in cycling. Second tier teams that know they can’t outplay the bigs in 90 minutes use defensive tactics and basically running out the clock knowing they in a shootout have at least 50/50 chance compared to the very tiny chance they have of outscoring their opponent in regular play.

Jens - July 24, 2011 reply

Paraguay baby!

e.g. Chilavert’s team vs. France in WC ’98 . . .

but best e.g. has to be current Paraguay team – I love how they haven’t won a single game at this year’s Copa América . . . and today they’ll be playing in the FINAL!

yep, cajuncook totally missed my point

The thing is it’s not fair to complain about the TT deciding when the losing side in fact did have a chance to do enough to win before it came to that last TT/shootout.

exactly what I was trying to say, thanks for the summary Jens :-)

guidemd - July 24, 2011 reply

+1

in fact this year was TT lighter than usual.

For most people – regardless of who they supported – it has been a dream TdF precisely because it came down to the ast competitive stage.

I just watched the race--I've been out all day

Definitely an okay ride by Andy Schleck today. If you would have told me that Contador would finish third in the ITT and beat Schleck by 92 seconds, I would have thought for sure that Evans would finish +/- 15 seconds to Schleck in the final GC. Cadel Evans won the race in the ITT. Schleck did not lose it. He made Cadel finish within 35 seconds of a very, very game Contador. Evans had the ITT of his life.

It had crossed my mind, that all of Contador/Schlecklet/Voeckler had already put forth at least one tremendous, time gaining performance in the Tour. Evans had yet to do so. I guess stage 20 was his day to race out of his mind.

All of Contador/Schlecks/SamSan/Voeckler did have one bad day where they either cracked uphill, or got blasted downhill. Evans never had that one bad day. He had one great day, but he also had a string of very impressive rides. He gained time on a sharp uphill finish. Lost in Schlecklet’s complaining (besides the fact that said “complaining” set him up perfectly for a surprise on stage 18) is the fact that Evans dropped Contador and SamSan in the Gap. He rode smart in the Pyrenees, single-handedly rode himself back into the Tour up the Galibier, and overcame those freak mechanical incidents to finish with s.t. on The Alpe. He stayed in the front third on the flats, and he even showed off his finishing kick by winning Stage 4. Oh bytheway, he killed that ITT. Absolutely murdered it.

If you watched Andy’s interview, his words were rather gracious. You could see the heartbreak in his eyes—I was half expecting his voice to get all wobbly or his eyes to start overflowing. He talked a lot about taking pride in a double-podium, congratulating Evans, and how much he enjoyed getting support from the fans. He called it a good Tour. I’m sure he meant it. BUT—he certainly did not look like a man who was fine with second. I read somewhere that he was crying at some point—if so, I think that would say a lot more about his current state than anything he releases on Twitter.

In any event, Andy finished second. Schleckond, even. You can come up with any narrative you want about Schleck being attached to his brother, overly conservative, afraid to descend. For my money, I’ll blame Schleck’s defeat on one person: Cadel Evans. The bottom line is that both Schlecks got beaten by the best rider in the Tour.

dees ees en drama - July 24, 2011 reply

well put

Jens - July 24, 2011 reply

L'Equipe's illustration

Today.

Cruel and very clever.

That's so strange

I was having lunch right now and just thought that “Leopard Dundee” or “Cadel Evans: Leopard Hunter” might make an Aussie joke headline, but thought it was too corny. Apparently, L’Equipe didn’t think so.

Hasan Paliwala - July 24, 2011 reply

Well done.

gizzardfanny - July 24, 2011 reply

Funny.

Could have been Gilbert at the LBL.

Uphill - July 24, 2011 reply

hehe true

ironic that this is the 2nd enormous race of the year in which they’ve been on 2nd and 3rd spots of podium

@irishpeloton

Leopard-Trek have placed a rider on a losing step of the podium this year in Milan-San Remo, Paris-Roubaix, Flanders, Liége and the Tour!

(But watch out: he announced there would be fake facts to catch media people copying and not crediting.)

tedvdw - July 24, 2011 reply

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Yeah, terrible record. Along with their 19 wins.

majope - July 24, 2011 reply

Obviously he didn't mention the wins

but I also think he wasn’t detracting from them. In fact, amazing performance by them to get on all those podiums (albeit not on the top step).

tedvdw - July 24, 2011 reply

Yeah, 'losing step' is so complimentary.

But the better person to ask what he really meant would be irishpeloton, not you, and he didn’t even post it here.

majope - July 24, 2011 reply

You didn't ask and I wasn't saying what he meant but what I thought about it.

tedvdw - July 24, 2011 reply

I just meant that it's silly of me to be arguing about it with you

when it wasn’t you I wanted to argue with, and (A) irishpeloton wasn’t here to argue about it and, in fact, (B) has no reason to think he has anyone to argue with about it here, since this isn’t where he posted it to begin with. So, I was simply being dumb about the whole thing.

majope - July 24, 2011 reply

Ah right :)

I didn’t feel like we were arguing (because I knew you were questioning his intentions, not mine) though I was slightly confused by your previous comment.

tedvdw - July 25, 2011 reply

CQ statistics

KMs ridden before start of the tour (only includes completed races .1 or higher)

A Schelck 7024
Contador 6936
F Schleck 6419 (DNF P-N so 500+ underscored)
Evans 4078

Cadel raced TA (won), Catalunya (8th by under a minute to Bert) Romandie (won) Dauphine (2nd) and the strade bianchi

Andy raced TA (41st), Pais Vasco (12) Cali (8th) Suisse (19) CI/Ruta de sol/Ardennes/other one days (ordinary except LBL)

Bert raced Algarve (4), Murcia (1), Catalunya (1), Castille y Leon (24 – won TT), Giro (1) and Fleche (11)

Conclusions perhaps not best leapt to from such bare information – but arguable its not how many kms you race, but how you race them, that is best prep for the tour.

Andy rode a great race in the High Alps, but seemed a little undercooked until then. Contributed nothing visible to the TTT, sluggish on a couple of short hills, unable to capitalise in the Pyrenees, before excelling in the Alps. His TT was probably slightly above par, just not good enough compared to the company he was keeping.

Evans rode well all three weeks. Led his team in the TTT, won on the Mur de B, hung tough in the Pyrenees, TTed away from Bert and Sammy and the rest to Gap, dropped Sammy then Bert (something not seen on a mountain side in many a while) while clawing back the gap on Galibier single handed, then confirmed his TT form.

One came into the race and raced it from the start, and always looked “on it”, the other didn’t. Same person won. Handsomely in the end.

andrewp - July 24, 2011 reply

"not how many kms you race, but how you race them"

Yeah, I think the main point has been that he isn’t racing for real it’s not, say, LBL and the Tour. There’s perhaps a fine line between doing too much and doing too little at a race, but I’d say that he sometimes is well below that line.

I bet Contador never again races that many miles before the TdF NM

nm