Thanks to the Googler Cache Cache, here are a couple screen shots of the Tour de France 2012 route leak. Though the map still shows the 2011 course, this page apparently describes the 2012 Tour de France course. The sidebar column details the stages and below is a list of the start and finish towns.
According to this page, which may be a PR stunt or may be an inadvertent leak of the 2012 course, the 2012 Tour de France will include five mountain stages, of which two will be mountaintop finishes. There will be a prologue and two individual time trials. The sprinters have nine flat stages to try their luck, while four stages are "accidentales," or chances for the breakaways. Of the non-sprint stages, there will be one with an uphill finish.
If this page is correct, the mountain stages include one climb in the Vosges. The Tour organizes have a new-found love for the Jura: there are three cols in the Jura and four climbs in the Swiss Jura. The high mountain stages weight toward the Pyrénées with eleven climbs, while the Tour climbs six cols in the Alps.
There are nine new host towns for the 2012 Tour: Abbeville, Annonay Davézieux, Bellegarde-sur-Valserine, La Planche des Belles Filles, Peyragudes, Porrentruy, Samatan, Tomblaine, Visé.
The race begins in Belgium with a prologue in Liège on 30 June and ends with the traditional sprint stage on the Champs Elysées on 22 July. That bit, at least, is certain. The official annoucement for next year's race is on 18 October 2011.
0 recs | 205 comments
That map is still 2011 right?
Cause, uh, that’s not where Liege is. Unless the Frenchies stole it and “forgot” to inform Flanders.
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
Indeed.
I was just thinking my geography wasn’t what it was.
civetta - October 10, 2011
Oh right sorry
The map is incorrect, but the information on the sidebar is 2012.
Jen See - October 10, 2011
If he's in 2009 form
Fabian Cancellara could win this.
Looks like the ASO have decided the biggest problem with the Tour was that GC guys kept winning it.
The good: more than 60km ITT, reversing the recent trend.
The bad: absolutely everything else.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Oh Urbs
It’d be ironic is Pigeons’ Fabian for TdF dreams actually turn out to be true after all this time. She’d never let us forget it.
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
Even Mick freaking Rogers might stand a chance on this dud.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Pigeons'll be thrilled, surely
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
I might actually skip half of this to watch the Tour de Pologne. That’s how bad this route is.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Fabu has NO chance
He tried to keep yellow on easy Arcalis and lost over 5 minutes.
He’ll be dropped on the Croix de Fer and lose 15 minutes on the Toussuire stage
Derek Ortt - October 10, 2011
ja
He’s not a climber. That TdS win was a combination of lack of climbs and fear of what might happen to a non-Swiss rider who overtook him.
Chris Fontecchio - October 10, 2011
Well usually I’d try and post a photo of a key climb. But instead: 4 cols in the Swiss Juras …. I doubt they’ll do any of the hard ones as all dead ends …. but the swiss Juras is the birthplace of Absinthe (the green fairy):
Willj - October 10, 2011
Ha!
So do we have to all pray to the green fairy during the Jura stages? :D
Jen See - October 10, 2011
Yes! Should be fun:
and then
Willj - October 10, 2011
All the climbers just circled the giro on their calendar.
MikeyGreen - October 10, 2011
Wiggo just messed his bibs.
I hope the flat stages are interesting and we get some bonnifications, otherwise this could be a snoozefest.
The last tour was amazing but this looks on paper to be dull. Fab, Tony or Boom takes the prologue then holds yellow to the ITT when it may or mat not change hands to another TT’er.
I hope those flat days are hard…
Guinea - October 10, 2011
+1 to bonifications
Willj - October 10, 2011
T-Mart probably could have held his tongue on never chasing a GT overall...
because he can climb very well…and with all those TT k’s, it would be fun to watch a big TT guy fighting tooth and nail to get a top 5 overall
Vlaanderen90 - October 10, 2011
Realistically
He could take 90 seconds out of the race elite in the first ITT and probably two minutes in the second, if on top form. If he has a GREAT day, maybe even more than that (dude is 26 – who’s to say we’ve seen his best?). He could Indurain (or perhaps I should say Evans?) his way to yellow here, absolutely.
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
the 2011 Tour de France was possibly the best one-week stage race of the year.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Murdoch >> ASO
Besides he probably have a couple of tapes with Prudhomme’s voice on them.
Uphill - October 10, 2011
Not a chance
I can’t speak about the other stages, but the French NAts were held this year in Boulogne, which is where stage 3 ends, and that is one mean nasty hill to finish on. Here’s some video from the women’s race (go to 24.30 onwards to see the road race). And here are the results from the men’s race so you can see the time gaps.
Monty. - October 11, 2011
And that is the only possible finish line
in all of Bolougne?
tgsgirl - October 11, 2011
we can but hope.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
As far as I remember
every way in to Boulogne involves going up and down some similar hills. Hence I guess the massive time gaps in the races. Watch the earlier bit of that video following Audrey Cordon around the TT course.
Monty. - October 11, 2011
Any chance any of these stages have cobbles? I feel like the tour needs a good cobble day.
MikeyGreen - October 10, 2011
IF
Fabian wins it I will forgive them for a snooze-fest.Otherwise-Bah!
Dustbunny8 - October 10, 2011
No chance this will be a snoozfest
Classics heaven more likely
platypus - October 12, 2011
Good day
for programmers to send their resume to ASO.
Bad day for me to empty out my Interbike notebook… Oh well
Chris Fontecchio - October 10, 2011
Well, you know what they say
come for the food, stay for the pie.
Jen See - October 10, 2011
There's pie?
JustJoshinYa - October 10, 2011
Well at least they didn't completely lose their shit by unveiling the Vuelta route, too
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
Ah... just lulling us/Wiggo into a false sense of security, maybe?
civetta - October 10, 2011
No team time trial?
CelticPride - October 10, 2011
ONLY UPSIDE
whoops, capslock
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
capslock there was not a mistake.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
I prefer a SHORT TTT – fun but not too meaningful GC wise
Willj - October 10, 2011
+1
paisley - October 10, 2011
Agreed, TTT's are cool
I’ll quite enjoy the world championship TTT next year. By the way, has anyone figured out whether the whole team will get to wear rainbow jerseys in TTT’s over the next year, or just the 6/8/9/whatever number of particular riders in the WC TTT?
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
TTTs belong on the track
and have no place in road cycling
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
-1
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
Bullcrap
I think that (long) road TTTs are beautiful. I say bring back the 100 km TTT to the Olympics. But I do think TTTs are too much for stage races. Strong teams already have a huge advantage, not very useful to amplify that strength by including a (long) TTT.
tedvdw - October 10, 2011
Olympics is a great idea for a longer TTT
Willj - October 10, 2011
Not really
Same problem as the worlds TTT for nations – an event requiring seamless teamwork, being ridden by guys who seldom if ever ride together, at least competitively.
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
yep, fun
Jamaica ftw
Willj - October 10, 2011
They don't have to be top pros
Olympics is amateur hour, anyway.
tedvdw - October 10, 2011
I think the prologue should be a TTT
The prologue is supposed to sort out a bit of a pecking order for the first few stages and what could be more honest about how the race works than that?
platypus - October 11, 2011
So basically
the TTT is good, but only as a standalone event?
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Or a 7-day stage
You could build a 7-day stage around two long TTTs and no ITT. Combine that with lots of bonification-rich flat stages and not much climbing and you’d have an interesting and different race.
Good option for a flat country trying to generate interest in a short stage race. How about Eneco?
po8crg - October 10, 2011
two long TTTs and five flat stages with lots of bonifications?
“Interesting” is probably the last word I’d use to describe that. Bob Stapleton and Dave Brailsford probably love the idea though.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
OK, so I said "different"
But if you don’t have the option of hills, how else do you make a seven-day stage interesting?
OK, cobbles, I suppose.
po8crg - October 10, 2011
Wind turbines! Helicopters! Let’s generate some crosswinds!
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
That is what I wrote
tedvdw - October 10, 2011
I like TTT's
They provide more “generalisation” to a GC contender. In my books, a GC winner should not be someone who is only excellant at climbing, or time-trialling etc etc but mediocre in other field. For two examples (extremes): Rodriguez and T.Martin. In a Grand Tour, a TTT is another thing for the eventual Winner to navigate, another obstacle, another feather to put in the cap.
In the same way, I don’t mind cobblestones being in the race either, so I view whinging about that (which we will see rise to bigger than ’09 proportions) in a dim light.
RollinRollinRolland - October 11, 2011
So he should be good at having decent teammates? Or good at having a wealthy boss who can buy him the right teammates?
tgsgirl - October 11, 2011
Cycling is a team sport, so yes, having good team mates is part of it
It’s just one more aspect someone who wants to win needs to consider.
Did Contador have good team-mates at Astana? Do you really think Cadel’s victory this year came off the back of a wealthy benefactor buying team-mates? Sure BMC were a good team but you can not expect that a wealthy boss with a blank cheque would chase after the likes of Schar and Morabito to create an awesome team.
RollinRollinRolland - October 11, 2011
Yes Contador did have good teammates at Astana...the last TTT he did with them a the Tour
was with Armstrong, Horner, Leipheimer, Klöden, and Popovych…insanely strong TTT squad
The TTT course was short and pretty much purposely made to limit time gaps…but when you institute them every year or make them 70km affairs, your basically handing victories to teams that focus on the TT/TTT…yeah, cycling has a team aspect to it but don’t handicap teams like lower budget teams because they can’t afford to give everyone a TT bike or sign a few TT studs
Vlaanderen90 - October 11, 2011
there's an answer to part of that:
remove time trial bikes from grand tours.
R Mc - October 11, 2011
or, produce tt courses like the Sestri Levanti stage in Giro 09
R Mc - October 11, 2011
Now that, I’m all for.
Teammates are already enough of the equation, without making a rider’s GC ambitions hinge on whether Nicki Sørensen or Miguel Minguez can hold on in a time trial.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
I really like both of those ideas...
Have them ride 2 semi-long (~40k) TTs…one that is hillier and a flatter/rolling one
then have them ride standard road bikes with clip-ons…though the sponsors would be flipping out over that
Vlaanderen90 - October 11, 2011
bah clip-ons
bah aero helmets.
possibly . . . allow aero-wheels.
You wanna rein in team budgets? Allow each rider 2 bikes per GT. Maybe make an exception if a rider breaks a frame.
R Mc - October 12, 2011
Won't matter much
The good TTists will still be faster than the rest.
SpunOut - October 13, 2011
horner wasn't on the astana tdf team in 2009
umwolverine - October 11, 2011
Can't afford to give everyone a TT bike?
Should they really be in the Tour then?
SpunOut - October 13, 2011
Those are called pursuits
SpunOut - October 13, 2011
so Basso and Cunego will have another go at the Tour?
Uphill - October 10, 2011
If this is true
Some ASO employee will have had a very bad day at the office. L’ouch!
Lopex - October 10, 2011
me thinks it's a bad day out of an office after this one.
OR they released this to hear if it will float and the real course will be announced and be a doozy.
JustJoshinYa - October 10, 2011
I'm sure this will be the course...I saw rumors of ASO wanting to show off the medium mountains next year
so they won’t be doing insane Giro amounts of climbing…though I’d love to see them get some tough finishes for flatter days
Vlaanderen90 - October 10, 2011
what ASO needs to do,
in my arrogant DDIFP-opinion
is to figure out a way to make the GC guys race the middle climbs and not just the last one.
The Alps rocked this year cuz of that.
R Mc - October 10, 2011
mountain top bonifications, perhaps?
thebongolian - October 10, 2011
and shorter stages
Willj - October 10, 2011
Absolutely
Alpe d’Huez was the best day of Grand Tour racing this year.
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
better than Val di Fassa?!
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Yup
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
Personally, I thought the Tour was a huge letdown this year. By the time we got to the interesting stages, I’d had enough and just wanted it to be over. Contador attacking 90km out was just him trying to put the race out of its misery sooner.
UrlaubinPolen - October 10, 2011
Better than Nieve's death march through the Dolomites
I’m not saying he and Garzelli weren’t warriors, but those performances, irrespective of who wound up giving them, were pretty much foregone conclusions. The riders made Alpe d’Huez interesting. If you disagree, cool.
Aly Edge - October 11, 2011
Wow, and I thought it was possibly the best Tour in recent history because many of the stages were essentially great for one day racers instead of Sprint, or Mountain Stage specialists.
Ryan_Liles - October 11, 2011
+1
Only minor disappointment was a passively raced Pyrenées but the Alps made up for it in spades. Hard to expect the 100% perfect 21 stage TdF. (And we did get a great side-story with the surprise french GC performances when some of the big GC battles were lacking)
Jens - October 11, 2011
+2
The first week was surprisingly great …. and the mountain stages generally excellent.
The winner very uncertain until at least the Agnel stage
Willj - October 11, 2011
+many
Best TdF that I can remember.
Uphill - October 11, 2011
Unfortunately, that says a lot about the recent quality of the Tour. After two weeks fricking Philippe Gilbert was in the top 10. Says it all about how un-challenging the first two weeks were. Take crashes and the TTT out of it and the grand total of GC action in the first 11 stages was 15 seconds – 3 gained by Evans on Mont des Alouettes, and 12 on Mur-de-Brétagne. But because there had been so little GC action, everybody still had something to protect, so you got the nervy, tense péloton that spent half its’ time crashing and eradicating contenders from the race, until we were left with the absolute bare bones of a GC field.
But then, the hot final week with great GC action does a good job of making people forget just how tedious the first week was, how awfully the Pyrenées were raced and that they put a worthless flat stage on the penultimate weekend.
The Tour de France was the best one week race of the year. But Prudhomme got what he wanted – a final week showdown (because he guaranteed no action in weeks 1 and 2), Cavendish in green and a GC contender in polka dots. Because the final week was exciting he even managed to win over most fans, because what’s most recent in the memory is strongest. Same as why many were disappointed by the Vuelta – because the final week was, from a GC point of view, stupendously disappointing.
The Giro was the only race that remembered a Grand Tour is three weeks long this year. Unfortunately, it invited a guy who made mincemeat of the field and meant it was over as a competitive endeavour after one week.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
Simple answer
Grand Tours are about more than the battle for GC.
Jens - October 11, 2011
Fine, but we shouldn’t have to wait two weeks for anything to do with the battle for the GC. It’s the same as how the Giro didn’t bother putting anything after about stage 11 to make the sprinters hang around, so they didn’t. The Giro was too focused on the mountains and the GC men, so that when the GC was cleared up early there was no side battle; the Tour shoehorned the entire GC battle into one week to make room for the other battles.
The stages of the 2011 Tour weren’t the problem for me. The ridiculously lopsided pacing was.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
What is your solution?
You seem to have a complaint for everything the 2011 Grand Tours did “wrong” so how would you change them?
Personally, I think all 3 were fascinating for different reasons.
scrawnyguy - October 11, 2011
There were good Pyrennian stages
with a lot of repetitive climbing. The riders chose not to race those stages, however. Usually on that stage to Luz Ardiden, the attacks start on Tourmalet because it is very hard to gain time on Luz Ardiden. Last year, nobody wanted to attack until 500m to go
Derek Ortt - October 11, 2011
My "rec" button is causing "flag" instead.
So, +1
JFS_PGH - October 16, 2011
For sure my expectations for the GC competition
is generally pretty low, mainly as a result of lack of risk taking by the riders. Almost everybody rides the GC backwards these days, i.e. trying to avoid loosing time as we go along and then hope some luck plays into ones hand at the end.
For various reasons we had a couple of riders who were willing to take some chances at this years TdF and that made the race for me.
Uphill - October 11, 2011
Just a shame we had to wait until stage 18 for them to realise that they might have left it too late.
I thought the spread of stages at the Tour was absolutely fine, but having no GC-settling stage until stage 12 meant that everybody was protecting their interests until then, resulting in a nervous and crash-prone péloton because woe betide the guy in 29th place overall loses his chance of getting into the top 15. I would have liked some kind of early GC shakeup. I would have had an ITT instead of the TTT (Definitely) and made the Super-Besse stage use the harder 2008 approach for one thing.
With regards to the Giro, that was just too much mountain focus. Either they needed to turn Nevegal into a 55km flat ITT or they needed to drop one of the unnecessary overkill MTFs like Macugnaga. Obviously, the Giro put some potentially very exciting and interesting stages in week 1 but for obvious reasons, racing took a back seat at that point, and I have no qualms with how they treated the tragedy so no problems on that point.
With regards to the Vuelta, I’m sure that pretty much any of you given a few minutes with a map could draw up some more GC-relevant stages in the north of the country than they provided. Also, in the early leaks of the route the flat procession in Madrid was replaced by a 20km ITT. I prefer this, as though the Champs-Elysées sprint may be sacrosanct, the pan-flat sprint through the capital to finish is played out (especially in races like Austria where it completely hamstrings the race route) and reeks of copying the Tour. And it makes the Vuelta look weak in comparison (you can make the convincing argument that it IS weak in comparison, of course, but they should be trying to mask that).
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
TdF
I liked the two stages before 18 which involved descents (if I recall correctly). In general I am with you on having an early stage opportunity to try and clean up the GC a little more. A TT is good or reinstate bonifications.
Giro:
Way too much survival this year and not enough racing. Cut the mountain stages down in distance and I am pretty convinced we have better action. Best action this year belonged to a couple of hilly stages.
Vuelta.
Last week’s course was just wrong overall. Waste of brilliant territory. Until then the race was pretty good.
Uphill - October 11, 2011
give me a B.... give me an O.... give me an N...
umwolverine - October 11, 2011
I think you lost almost the entire cycling world with this comment. Huh?
Willj - October 11, 2011
Gilbert is a great rider. The best in the world by a street at what he does, if not the best in the world bar none. But what he does in one day races has no bearing on whether he should be in the top 10 of a GT after two weeks, considering he hadn’t even picked up any major time in a breakaway.
At the start of the penultimate weekend, we’d had one mountain stage (which was raced very conservatively), the Aubisque stage which is sort of a mountain stage I guess, and the rest of it was a TTT, and nothing but sprints and a few of the kind of stages Gilbert was made for.
Great riding by him to be there, but on any other GT parcours of the last ten years, no way would he have been there. He can’t climb or ITT well enough for that.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
So the best cyclist in the world was 7 minutes from the leader part way through the Tour is upsetting? I just don’t see it as a bad sign … even remotely.
So many great sub-stories and Gilbert was one of them – he helped make the first week. Thor and Voeckler were obvious other stories – fabulous. But we all knew none of them could win.
I loved all three weeks …. just saying …. they were all very competitive … with very few dud stages imho.
For me, I judged the Tour on the excitingness of each stage …. 9/10 and
the suspense over who might win …. 9.5 /10
Great Tour.
…. and don’t you think Gilbert could be far closer in 2012 … if he wanted to be?
Willj - October 11, 2011
but I am biased …. I think every Giro stinks :)
Willj - October 11, 2011
Maybe, but I’d be concerned that he might have to sacrifice some of what he already is (plus of course he’ll have the defending champion as a teammate).
I really didn’t like the Tour this year. The pacing was just off for me. The stages were all fine, but there didn’t feel like any suspense early on for me, because we all knew that as long as people stayed upright (which proved a lot tougher than expected) nothing would happen until week 3 anyway. And so it was written, and so it came to pass.
Now, there were some good stories in the first two weeks, but ultimately they were all irrelevant. Prudhomme had designed them to be irrelevant, and so they were. Maybe judging it stage by stage it comes out better, but as a three week unit it was like a game of football that is 0-0 with only a few chances at full time but then both teams realise they don’t fancy penalties and you get a really exciting period of extra time.
The Tour was a one week race this year. It was the most exciting one-week race of the year (Tirreno, Suisse and Asturias the only real competition to be fair), but it was a one-week race.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
fair enough
It’s all about perceptions. I had completely different perceptions about 2011 than you. I loved the early sub-stories.
Not dis-similar to any-time any sprinter enters a GC – are Petacchi / Cav stage wins irrelevant?
But I respect your view
Willj - October 11, 2011
Again,
what Jens said: " GT’s are about more than the battle for GC". You seem to be focused on only that aspect not looking at the fact that everyday is a race to be won and glory to be had.
sminer - October 12, 2011
granted. But, to me at least, the battle for the GC is an important enough element to stage racing that it merits actually being considered at some point in the first two thirds of the race. It doesn’t need to be to the exclusion of all else! Take the 2008 Giro for example – almost all the mountain stages crammed into the final week. But you had a tough Pescocostanzo stage in stage 7 (much tougher than Super Besse was this year) and a good length ITT in stage 10, which meant that while the other riders had plenty to fight for, there was some kind of GC action to supplement it.
At the 2011 Tour, there was no less GC action than most other Tours. It’s just that it was all compressed into one week. I would have liked a more even distribution of stages; as it was it felt like everything was a warmup for the final week, and it was set up like a music festival where the GC acts were the headliners and everybody else had to finish their show before they started. I like ALL the battles to have some kind of relevance throughout a race. It was just as bad at the Giro, when all the sprinters abandoned at the halfway point because there was nothing left for them, so no point in continuing. Petacchi quit in the points jersey for goodness’ sakes. If it weren’t for the Champs Elysées I’m sure they’d have done it again at the Tour. The GC guys could have rolled into town in week 3 having left doppelgangers in the péloton for two weeks and nobody would have been any the wiser.
I’m not asking for different stages than the ones we got in 2011. There were some excellent stages. I’m asking for a more even distribution of them.
UrlaubinPolen - October 12, 2011
But (spluttering)
for better or worse, the first week IS about who stays upright in the first week for GC. Has been for at least a decade.
Trying to guess which GC rider will self-eliminate through crashing is the hardest part of predicting the race . . . (now that Hamilton’s retired).
R Mc - October 12, 2011
to elaborate:
There is nothing wrong with including sprint stages, and there is nothing wrong with including the kind of stages Gilbert excels at. Some of those stages were quite good in fact. But that he was still in the top ten after two weeks shows just how lopsided the parcours was, because it meant that no truly challenging GC stage AT ALL had taken place – as Gilbert can neither climb nor ITT well enough to be any GC threat realistically.
Gilbert’s riding in the first two weeks of the Tour saved it from being an utter processional farce, and for that he should be commended. But the route was “two weeks of jockeying for ten-fifteen seconds, then a week of mountains one after the other”. Normally I’d be all about a week of mountain stages. But it was like the first two weeks were deliberately rendered irrelevant, but for the demolition derby aspects of it, because they crammed absolutely everything into the final week, and because of how chaotic they’d made the final week, they just kind of ambled around for two weeks on a wing and a prayer that Gilbert could somehow make it worth watching, since the green jersey was the only jersey actually being fought for (as in for the victory, not just the right to wear it) in weeks 1 and 2. Mileage naturally varies on how interesting he made it.
UrlaubinPolen - October 11, 2011
I don’t understand.
Perhaps you could actually suggest a GT in the last 20 years which was done in such a way to your liking.
Giro ’05 was pretty good, for example.
Again, for me I was totally into this years Tour because the two first weeks the GC contenders had to work their asses off, both mentally and physically, just to stay in the race.
Both Wiggans, LL, and Don Pistolero himself failed to do that.
The first two DNF’d & the Don never really recovered from those mistakes.
The only reason why Evans was even in the hunt on the third week was because he battled so hard the first two; which was awsome to watch.
Honestly, did you even see this years tour, or did you just read about it on CN?
Seriously, this was the first tour in so long that the race wasn’t decided in a single mountain stage.
Ryan_Liles - October 12, 2011
This Tour absolutely rocked
(except the incident with the car taking out Hoogerland and Flecha)
sminer - October 12, 2011
Yes, they worked their asses off AT STAYING UPRIGHT for two weeks. That’s all.
Apart from crashes, you were left with 15 seconds and the TTT. That’s all the GC action in the first week and a half. Nothing.
And when we got to those key stages, one of the main reasons it was exciting was that half the GC candidates had retired hurt.
It was better than most recent Tours. But that doesn’t mean it was amazing, brilliant or that the “nothing decisive for two weeks then wall to wall mountain stages, only remembering to stick a flat stage on at the weekend” should be a template for all Tours to follow in the future.
UrlaubinPolen - October 12, 2011
Staying upright was not all they did
The GC contenders even contested a stage for the win. Cadel nipped AC at the line. Of course you knew that because you did actually watch the race…. right?
sminer - October 12, 2011
Of course I knew that. But what was the sum total of the time gaps created?
All it needed was the Pyrenees being brought forward a bit and a 25-30km ITT instead of the TTT and we may have been golden.
I like the idea that I must not have seen the race because I’m not in love with it. It was still one of the better TdFs I’ve seen recently. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as most, and hated the pacing that made it feel like it was all rather unimportant since it was all going to come down to one week anyway.
As I said before, it was the best one-week race of the year. But it was a one-week race.
UrlaubinPolen - October 13, 2011
You're right
Shouldn’t remark that you didn’t watch because you didn’t love it all. We’re just viewing the race with different mind-set, I so thoroughly enjoyed it I can’t begin nickpicking.
sminer - October 13, 2011
That would be a very convincing argument,
If I were a computer or a time clock. As someone who enjoys watching the actual riding process and the riders, your laser-like focus on the time gaps is not doing much for me, frankly. Not saying that it can’t be the key to your enjoyment, of course. Such things are personal. Sorry you had some GT’s this season that you hated, but at the same time, glad that I had not one but three that I really enjoyed.
JFS_PGH - October 16, 2011
I did watch the race, and commented during the race that I did not like this years storyline.
The storyline I saw was, that this edition was all about staying upright, and that is not good imo.
When half or 2/3 of the GC contenders are taken out by crashes in the first week and the riders are racing with what I saw as recklessness, it is not a good race, again in my opinion, and then the route may be the best in a lot of years, but if the riders make it all about staying upright then I do not like it.
LittleOldLady - October 14, 2011
That's just one part of the storyline
Crashes happen, sometimes a lot of crashes happen. It sucks, I don’t like it either. But to then say the Tour was “all about staying upright” is not an opinion, it’s just a false statement.
sminer - October 14, 2011
"tedious" first week?
obviously we weren’t watching the same way . . .
R Mc - October 12, 2011
yes.
R Mc - October 11, 2011
Best Tour that I've seen
sminer - October 12, 2011
I liked it, too.
Jen See - October 12, 2011
+1
Uphill - October 11, 2011
I see, lowering expectations.
paisley - October 10, 2011
Plus making it less hard so that riders will come
who are focussing on the Olympics. Evans has already said his focus next year is the Olympics.
platypus - October 11, 2011
Good point.
Ryan_Liles - October 12, 2011
Also ASO wants the best riders all year to be competing for the win at the tour
Prudhomme has said this several times, he wants to make it far more difficult for those who don’t race year round to win. Those who aren’t used to fighting in the peleton and escaping will just crash out. We are going to see a lot more of the same type of racing as the first week this year. The teams will just have to adjust.
platypus - October 12, 2011
Kinda makes you wonder what Andy Schleck did to so upset the organizers.
paisley - October 10, 2011
riding dull in the Pyrenees?
Uphill - October 10, 2011
+1
scrawnyguy - October 10, 2011
Roger that- Andy will not have a happyface with 90K of ITT to suffer through....
So if he wants to protect (or improve) his TdF podium spot he either:
Finally commits to fundamentally re-thinking his ITT and his prep (recon etc)
Finally commits to descending better and/or handling his bike better
Finally commits to winning a stage race to bring some tactical nous to the game.
…because he damn sure is gonna lose time in those ITTs and will need to make up time somewhere, as this route seems to not be quite as difficult as others in the past (relatively speaking) in terms of high mountain finishes…
or, he makes the 2012 Giro his target for that elusive first stage race win…
Good luck with that…
Good rider, and now he has the TdF experience in Bruyneel, so he should be off and running…
(Provided he is not twisting himself in knots looking behind him for Franck)
Doctornurse - October 10, 2011
Or start training for 2013 when the race will be more mountainous after everyone complains when a TT specialist wins in 2012.
MikeyGreen - October 10, 2011
2013 route rumored to be all but decided already
since it will be the big 100th TdF celebration
Jens - October 10, 2011
100th edition, as opposed to 100 year anniversary
umwolverine - October 10, 2011
yeah, they did the anniversary thing in '03...going to the 6 original start towns
Vlaanderen90 - October 10, 2011
The Giro actually makes sense
He should be about as motivated as Jen See for this year’s Tour—with this route, they both have roughly the same odds of winning.
dees ees en drama - October 11, 2011
The Giro didn't want to be outdone
so they leaked their route as well
sminer - October 10, 2011
taking one up manship a bit far
paisley - October 10, 2011
Looks like a pretty pansy ass Tour
Hip hip huzzah to two long ITT’s, but BOY do they want to make double sure the rainbow stripes get to be in the winner’s circle a lot.
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
Well they probably feel the need to give him something.
Otherwise, Olympic year, hometown course, fair to middling chance of winning, might not bother turning up.
civetta - October 10, 2011
*Home* course
though Ms Todd at least seems to live there.
civetta - October 10, 2011
NINE sprint stages? FOURTEEN of the road stages branded as flat?
That’s…quite a ‘something.’ Maybe two or three eventually get made into ‘medium mountain’ if they’re meant to be break-friendly, but still…holy crap.
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
"En ligne" != sprint stage
Mur de Bretagne was en ligne.
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
The article says nine sprint stages
And the picture shows fourteen “en ligne” stages. Please reread my comment to see that I do understand the distinction ;)
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
And that's also kind of a false dichotomy
Stages aren’t either GC battlefields or Cav days. Mur de Bretagne provided for a whole 8 seconds of changes to anyone anywhere near the GC.
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
Can't have a false dichotomy
If there’s no dichotomy
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
Perhaps I took too big a logical leap
You seemed to be saying that MdB was an “action~!~!~!~!” stage. When really it was really no more or less exciting than a sprint. It was four hours of nothing followed by ten minutes of somewhat interesting, followed by a few seconds of WOW THAT WAS AWESOME!
Aly Edge - October 10, 2011
All I said is that 'en ligne' stages aren't necessarily sprint finishes
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
Giro Stage 7 of 2010 would have been considered en ligne . . .
R Mc - October 10, 2011
So what you are saying is
all en ligne stages are good for Vino and Cuddles?
tgsgirl - October 10, 2011
Or Gilbert. Or, all en ligne stages SHOULD
be good for attacks.
Especially the first two or three need to encourage flat-out racing with selections. That would make for a safer tour.
A traditional sprint stage or two are good—in the second week.
R Mc - October 10, 2011
And I didn't say they were
Aly Edge - October 11, 2011
There are nine "flat" stages, yes.
Then, there are four stages that are labelled “accidentale”, which in the normal way of things suit the breakaways. Or, alternatively, are uphill finishes. That is, they are not mountain stages, but they aren’t in the flats either.
Jen See - October 10, 2011
TWO MTF???!!!! TWO?????
Phil H. - October 10, 2011
remember, it's france, not italy.
umwolverine - October 10, 2011
yeah
It’s light on mountaintop finishes this time, there are five mountain stages, but only two are uphill finishes.
Jen See - October 10, 2011
3 MTF
stage 7 ends with a 5.5 km climb at nearly 9% gradient. Not too dissimilar from Mt Faron.
Derek Ortt - October 10, 2011
Hmm, okay
I’ll give you a 5.5 kilometer mountaintop ;)
For me, the “mountaintop” finishes in a grand tour are the, you know, big cols.
Jen See - October 11, 2011
What she gives, I must take away :)
2 MTF’s, 1 UHF (uphill finish?)
sminer - October 12, 2011
I'm skeptical
when things sound too good to be true, they usually are.
jsallee00 - October 10, 2011
So Cadel gets to repeat?
Chief42 - October 10, 2011
Sounds like it
SpunOut - October 13, 2011
So, all the TT specialists are looking to lose 10kg this season?
If Cancellara loses 10kg, he could podium (this would be his one and only chance to attempt to do what Indurain did.)
If Martin loses 5kg he could podium
If Wiggins can keep A. his form/B. upright, he’ll win.
Call me crazy if you like, but I believe it.
LawrenceS - October 10, 2011
Ahh... I probably should have just read what everyone else was talking about before commenting
LawrenceS - October 11, 2011
what's 25 pounds?
I can see it now: Greatest Loser, the already skinny cyclist version.
R Mc - October 11, 2011
Let's call it 20lbs
6’1 and 160 might be tough, but now’s the time to try.
Hell, Wiggins is listed at 6’3" 150, and two years ago got so thin, even thinner, that he didn’t have power.
I think people underestimate what Fabian could do in the mountains if it was his objective and he was a better climbing weight (~160-165)
LawrenceS - October 11, 2011
The whole thing with Fabian losing weight is that he would have to shed a bunch of muscle...
and he wouldn’t be the same rider…the most he should probably do, imo, is getting down to the weight he was in for Mendrisio Worlds…but even then, that was just for a couple of days and not a GT
Vlaanderen90 - October 11, 2011
If he is to win Liege and Lombardia one day, he does need to lose something.
Does Bruyneel want him to try for the other Monuments or stick to cobbles is a better question.
flying dog - October 11, 2011
Of course...
but that’s the trick. Lose enough weight (muscle and body fat) and preserve as much power as possible.
If you lose more weight than the equivalent ratio of power, then you have a better power to weight ratio.
Wiggins did it. Why couldn’t Fabian or T-Mart?
Courses with two uphill finishes may only come along once in a career for these guys…. doooooooo it!
(And as a side note, I don’t care too much if there are 5 cols per stage on the other stages…. unless the climbers attack from way out, the action won’t get started until the final climb. One-two punch…. Fabian and Andy.)
LawrenceS - October 11, 2011
If Bruyneel is smart, Schlecks will be riding the Giro for themselves and the TdF for Canc
My comment from the other thread:
platypus - October 12, 2011
He's already sunken-cheeked and low body fat.
My Swiss grandfather was fond of saying, “a starved cow doesn’t become a gazelle.” This statement was not popular with dieting female family members, but there’s an essential truth to it.
JFS_PGH - October 16, 2011
Here's another idea - they're trying to break LeMond and Fignon's record
Not too many time gaps in this route.
Aly Edge - October 11, 2011
massive gaps quite possible in Pyrenees and Toussuire
Thsoe are repetetive climbing stages. If the stage to Luchon is Abisque, Tourmalet, Azet, Peyresourde, that may produce larger gaps than the Le Grand Bornand stage from 2004. Potentially much larger if the stage is raced from a long distance as some were last year in the tour
Derek Ortt - October 11, 2011
+1
the days in the pyrenees being overlooked a little with all the TT debate.
11 major cols (cat 2,1,HC) in 2 (and a half at best) stages – one a MTF – and a whole subset of riders that will have to make the stages work for them before the final TT.
andrewp - October 11, 2011
Time gaps are where you find them
This year showed how much time can be available on minor little stages nobody cares about. If there are more of those stages, I imagine more riders will try to get the most out of them. They could, of course, sit back and wait for the two mountains… but then only one of them can win. I think if you have more possibility-stages (stages that you CAN gain time on, but that aren’t so obviously important that everyone races them hard), you’ll get more people competing in the GC, and more interesting green and polka competitions as well.
Besides, I don’t see what all the fuss is about MTFs. A bunch of guys pedal slowly up a hillside until Contador decides to win. The ones this year were great, because Contador wasn’t there (only his ghost) – now, we may be able to ensure that through legal means for 2012, but you can’t blame the organisers for taking insurance, as it were. [They were also great because Andy knew he had to attack because of his TT disadvantage]
They could put in 20 MTFs if they wanted. Contador would win by five years, the rest of the top ten would be settled by day three, and everybody in the race would be on drugs.
In my opinion massive MTFs should be like TTs – part of the race, sure, but they should be limited and balanced against the rest of the race. We don’t need more than 2 or 3 MTFs – we don’t need more than 1 or 2, in my opinion. No more than we need five TTs in each tour. Especially when we know who’s going to win them.
Wastrel - October 11, 2011
agree.
I want to see aggressive bike racing, not all tactical control all the time.
MTF’s have gotten better in recent years, but they tend to remind me of cross-country races or marathons on a bike. AND something must be done about effective crowd control on them. Too often the crowd practically neutralizes the racing by taking away the road.
R Mc - October 11, 2011
I agree whole-heartedtly about MTF's
They’re a part of racing and they can be enjoyable, but far from the be all and end all of bike racing. 2 or 3 in a GT is plenty. I love the somewhat uphill finishes of varying grades like we had at the Tour this year.
sminer - October 11, 2011
Screw so many MTF’s
I’d prefer some finishes with a downhill into a town just to show who can both go up and then down a mountain fast.
Ryan_Liles - October 12, 2011
Sagan chasing down Cunego ftw was pretty impressive
TdS right?
sminer - October 12, 2011
that was awesome.
I loved that stage, though I would have preferred a different outcome ;)
Jen See - October 12, 2011
yep, TdS – Grosse Scheidegg. That was particularly narrow and steep.
I think the Italy stage in this years Tour was the other great downhill finish of the season (riders ending up in a driveway)
Willj - October 12, 2011
Right
Voeckler lost considerable time that day, he went off the road a couple times. Andy lost time too, right?
sminer - October 12, 2011
andy lost time on stage 16, rainy descent into gap
umwolverine - October 12, 2011
stages 16 and 17
umwolverine - October 12, 2011
dream stage (for either Giro OR Tour):
That same Pra Martino – Pinerolo finish, but using Finestre instead of Sestrières.
UrlaubinPolen - October 12, 2011
that would work
umwolverine - October 12, 2011
riders make the race
The first mountain stage in 1986 in the Pyrenees was very easy with only 2 major climbs and a speed bump at the end. However, it was raced flat out from a long way out and the time gaps were MASSIVE
even larger time gaps would occur if stage 14 is raced the same way as the climbs are much harder
Derek Ortt - October 11, 2011
And large time gaps are good cuz?
I thought it’s more intense/suspensful when the gaps are minimal
sminer - October 12, 2011
agreed
I actually really liked how the Pyrénées stages in this year’s Tour were a stalemate. It added tension to the race that the favorites remained so close together as the race came down to the final mountain stages in the Alps.
Jen See - October 12, 2011
86 was considered a great tour
primarily due to the Lemond vs Hinault battle (if you can call it a battle as Hinault WAITED for Greg on the Peyresourde) and the fact that all mountain stages, except for Puy de Dome were raced flat out for most of the stage. Race was exciting despite the 4th place Hampsten finishing nearly 20 minutes behind the lead
Derek Ortt - October 12, 2011
the problem is, how to ensure those minimal gaps whilst still providing the excitement. You can ensure minimal gaps by providing a parcours that makes opening up time gaps really difficult (like the 2007 Vuelta), but that often leads to some very dull racing. You can get minimal gaps by providing a really tough race, but perhaps too tough so the riders race it conservatively, always in fear of what’s to come (like the 2009 Vuelta).
It’s a delicate balancing act. Trying to engineer small time gaps for a big showdown can blow up in your face (see the 2009 Tour), but equally some very tough parcours can create very small timegaps (see the 2005 Giro).
UrlaubinPolen - October 12, 2011
Ultimately
most of us are looking at this year’s TdF as pretty damn exciting, and you’re complaining abut it. So it just shows you can’t please everyone.
sminer - October 12, 2011
No, generally on the internet
opposing points of view are discussed in a lively and stimulating exchange,
then everyone realizes that one viewpoint is most strongly supported by the evidence
and a consensus is reached
straw dog - October 13, 2011
I like it better when
opposing points of view are discussed in a lively and stimulating exchange, then everyone agrees to be grown-ups and agrees to disagree. Why must there be a consensus? It’s not like we’re printing a PdC party program or something.
…
or are we?
tgsgirl - October 13, 2011
I'm confused
Is there another internet now that I’m not aware of?
And “consensus is reached”? So, when a viewpoint is determined to be most strongly supported, will someone let me know if I liked the Tour this year.
sminer - October 13, 2011
Yes, you liked it.
But based on preliminary polling, the internet may not allow you to like it quite so much next year.
straw dog - October 13, 2011
Will I be able to like this year's TdF next year,
or not like next year’s TdF next year? Still confused.
sminer - October 13, 2011
So consensus is right because it’s more strongly supported?
I mean, the evidence shows that Lady Gaga is a better musician than Leonard Cohen given that he’s performing to recoup lost money in his 70s and she’ll never need to work again.
Consensus is also different in different places. Maybe I’m swimming against the zeitgeist in not being bowled away by the 2011 Tour, but by the time we got to the bits that were really exciting, I’d got so annoyed by the way the race was going in the first half of the event and how much I was hating the horrible pacing of the completely backloaded route (especially given that they put that awful flat stage 15 on the penultimate weekend) that I wasn’t willing to give it a fair roll of the dice. As I’ve said many times, I didn’t have a problem with the stages, but I really really didn’t like the order they were in.
UrlaubinPolen - October 13, 2011
Ok, your evidence and arguments have convinced me.
So, the consensus is, that’s not the way the internet works.
straw dog - October 13, 2011
There's a difference between "I buy your argument and see your point"...
…and “you must accept the reactions of others, and make them yours.”
There are facts, there are logical arguments, and there are personal opinions. It doesn’t do to apply the same rules to each.
It’s a fact that Tony’s ass is bigger than Cadels, regardless of whether or not people on some forum reach consensus. It’s a personal opinion which rider you’d rather look at from behind, and it’s not respectful or kind to try to force a consensus. Same’s frankly true for some of the other stuff we argue about—some bits are fact, some bits are personal reactions (like enjoyment or non-enjoyment). Recognizing those things for what they are makes a better basis for arguing about the actual logical stuff.
Route builders are trying to satisfy fans with different desires, as well as riders/teams with different strengths, the people who sponsor them, and the towns which actively want (or feel owed) a start or finish, or a spot on the route. Money is no doubt in play, and also no doubt tighter than usual.
JFS_PGH - October 16, 2011
On which planet is this concensus-building form of internet?
I might enjoy a visit. Unless you mean, “place where people gang up to enforce their personal reactions and preferences on others, who are shamed into silence.” I did junior high school once, and that was enough.
JFS_PGH - October 16, 2011
Leak? Or Soft Reveal
Personally, I think this was a planned move on the part of the ASO to take the sting out of much of the dissapointment echoed in these comments when they hold the big, glitzy reveal in Paris. And I think the move was brilliant.
The last five Tours have been hyped as battles on the epic mountain, with the Aubisque, Alpe d’Huez, Ventoux, Tourmalet and Galibier as the shining starts. I’m sure thing would have not gone over well if they tried to cast La Toussiere in that role this time around. Prudhomme has said they he wanted to show off some of the medium mountains this 2012…by getting this news officially-unofficially out of the way this week, there’s some hope people will focus on the climbs and course selected, rather than those that weren’t.
If only Apple had “leaked” the lack of an iPhone 5 last week before the official announcement, a lot of the bad press they recieved about what wasn’t coming may have been replaced by reviews of what was.
jsmayer181 - October 11, 2011
Tournai, eh?
Hm… de Ronde passes near Tournai. I wonder if we could see a little fun on that stage? I know this is more about celebrating Wallonia, but it wouldn’t kill them to slip over the border near, oh, I dunno, Geraardsbergen?
Chris Fontecchio - October 12, 2011
Would that count as Gilbertification?
tgsgirl - October 13, 2011
Or
they’re adding in Boonifications.
Chris Fontecchio - October 13, 2011
It occurs to me
that it would be really easy to beat you at Rock-Paper-Scissors.
straw dog - October 13, 2011
Pfft
Nothing beats rock.
Chris Fontecchio - October 13, 2011
Boonifications or Boomifications?
tgsgirl - October 13, 2011
Or Seppuku
(Where Sep attacks and fail, I just wanted to use the word)
TheFigurehead - October 13, 2011
Sep doesn't fail
he’s just benevolent enough to let others win
tgsgirl - October 13, 2011
well played
if misguided.
Chris Fontecchio - October 13, 2011
Sprint-fest
Not sure why Wiggins would be happy, he’s not even riding next yr. If he is it’ll be a couple weeks of leadout duty, go for a stage win in the ITT, and prep for the Olympics. He won’t be going into the red in the Pyrenees, the Gold is more important to him.
And quite frankly he’s got no chance now (if he ever did) with Cav around.
This is made up for the lesser climbers and TT-lovers. It’s as if Prudhomme really wants to see Schleck continually come close but fail.
I used to live just outside of Brive, in Larché, and there are some pretty decent but short climbs there. Very Ardennes-esque, with 1-1.5k climbs that have up to 20% in them. But I doubt it’ll make too much difference to GC folks, or make up for a lack of climbing.
It’s also a shame that a place I’ve been to a couple times and would happily return to – Cap D’Agde – is an inevitable flat finish. And it’s Bastille day. A textbook pointless Cofidis & FdJ break, reeled in for a Cav win.
Yawn.
ike2112 - October 13, 2011
Except every interview he's given says he's going for Yellow
Now with Cav on his team it’ll be interesting to see how he copes when the teams having to split it’s focus but he’s definitely going to give it a go.
randomgerbil - October 13, 2011
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